The euro was a big mistake, and Greece is paying the price

[zen]

Public Schools are free. You dont need to attend private lessons all the time. Enough euphemism. First step is to balance the books. All those guys you see marching on streets half of them are pensioners. All fit and healthy. Even people in India with average life expectency atleast 20 years less then greecs retire at 62. Greeks want to retire at 60. To top it pension is very high Cost of living in Greece isnt High. Tax collection is allmost as good as India. Most of dealing are in cash. Needs big reform. Productivity is very poor e.g. Schools remain closed half the year while teaches are paid for the year.

But Greece has been taking most of the measures that you have suggested, iirc: * Minimum wages were cut by 22% * Public sector wages were cut by 15% * Combined pension funding has been cut by 40% * Health budget has been reduced by 40% too And Are you suggesting Greece continue to do what it has been doing but isn't probably working?

[zen]

More info on Greece * Pension age was raised to 67 for men, 60 for women * Unemployment = 25%; Among young people = 50% * For 52% households = pension is the most important source of income * Avg Greek pension = Euro 833 (In 2009 it is Euro 1350) * 33% of Greek pensioners get = Euro 360 * Another 33% get = Euro 675 On one hand, the income would decrease. On the other hand, taxes would increase

[Donal Cozzie]

Love how people crap on the socialists for not knowing how the real world works etc. when they conveniently ignore how it was decades of right wing governments that got them into this mess. Greece's situation is unique in that its solely down to - false accounting over the years making things look hunky dory when they werent - atrocious tax collection rates - early retirements They should still default and start again but the point is this was a disaster waiting to happen and successive Greek governments just kicked the can down the road rather than fix it. Syriza cant possibly solve this scenario, they're screwed either way, take another bailout and suffer decades of austerity or default and be outcasts for several years, but at least have control over their own affairs and currency. And as the above post shows some steps have been taken to address some issues like the ridiculous retiring situation Got to hand it to the Greeks though, they have the balls to at least stand up to the EU in some capacity, even if its a hopeless situation.

[G_B_]

Love how people crap on the socialists for not knowing how the real world works etc. when they conveniently ignore how it was decades of right wing governments that got them into this mess. Greece's situation is unique in that its solely down to - false accounting over the years making things look hunky dory when they werent - atrocious tax collection rates - early retirements They should still default and start again but the point is this was a disaster waiting to happen and successive Greek governments just kicked the can down the road rather than fix it. Syriza cant possibly solve this scenario, they're screwed either way, take another bailout and suffer decades of austerity or default and be outcasts for several years, but at least have control over their own affairs and currency. And as the above post shows some steps have been taken to address some issues like the ridiculous retiring situation Got to hand it to the Greeks though, they have the balls to at least stand up to the EU in some capacity, even if its a hopeless situation.

+1

[Kalia_Test]

Love how people crap on the socialists for not knowing how the real world works etc. when they conveniently ignore how it was decades of right wing governments that got them into this mess. Greece's situation is unique in that its solely down to - false accounting over the years making things look hunky dory when they werent - atrocious tax collection rates - early retirements They should still default and start again but the point is this was a disaster waiting to happen and successive Greek governments just kicked the can down the road rather than fix it. Syriza cant possibly solve this scenario, they're screwed either way, take another bailout and suffer decades of austerity or default and be outcasts for several years, but at least have control over their own affairs and currency. And as the above post shows some steps have been taken to address some issues like the ridiculous retiring situation Got to hand it to the Greeks though, they have the balls to at least stand up to the EU in some capacity, even if its a hopeless situation.

Great post :hatsoff: Better for Greece and its people to break off from Euro, devalue its currency ( it has to ), face issues for 2-3 yrs max and then get back mainstream. It will be a kick on nuts for some Greece people though ( and with good reason ). Only sympathies are with real old people in Greece who have to bear this in their twilight years :((

[randomGuy]

Greece has hopeless demographics....highest median age in the world at 44 yrs ...lowest fertility rate is the world at 1.3 children per woman from last 25 yrs. Its basically a dying country, if it leaves EU, it will die faster.

[zen]

Greece votes "No" .... Now the chances of "Grexit" increase

[BeautifulGame]

Germany reacts to referendum with mix of anger, puzzlement and solidarity Angela Merkel ‘respects’ the result in Greece but heads to meet François Hollande as Europe’s leaders and their advisers plan next moves

The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is to head to Paris on Monday for urgent talks with French president François Hollande over how to avert a growing eurozone debt crisis after Greek voters sent EU leaders their clearest message yet that they are in favour of a radical change of policy. An email statement from the Berlin chancellery, sent out shortly after polls closed in Greece and which mirrored one sent out by the Élysée Palace, said the aim of the meeting, arranged after a telephone call between the two leaders, was to “jointly assess the situation after the Greek referendum and to address the continuation of Franco-German close cooperation in this matter.” Live Greek referendum: Asian markets fall sharply after Greece no vote – live Investors reflect fears for the stability of financial system after Greek voters overwhelmingly rejected further austerity measures by creditors A government spokesman in Berlin stressed that both politicians were in agreement that “the vote of the Greek citizens is to be respected”. As politicians, bankers, business leaders and policymakers across Europe held emergency meetings on Sunday night to help shape their responses to the historic referendum result, and to an impending eurozone crisis amid the growing realisation that a Greek exit from the euro cannot be ruled out, Hollande and Merkel will be expected to show a united front. They are due to speak publicly on the issue on Monday. The European Central Bank’s governing council is also due to meet on Monday, with pressure on them to decide what to do about Greek lenders who depend on its emergency flow of credit. The responses came as Germans reacted with a mix of anger, puzzlement and solidarity to the Greek people’s overwhelming no vote. Sigmar Gabriel, Germany’s deputy chancellor and who is also the country’s economy minister as well as the head of the Social Democrats, was the first member of Merkel’s coalition government to react to the vote. He said the no result meant there was “hardly any chance left for a compromise” to be made between Brussels and Athens. The government of Alexis Tsipras had “torn down the last bridges over which Europe and Greece might have been able to move towards a compromise,” he told the Berlin daily Tagesspiegel. “With the rejection of the rules of the game of the eurozone, which have been expressed with the majority of nos, it is impossible to imagine negotiations over programmes worth billions,” he said. Gabriel added that the ball was now in Athens’ court, and that “Tsipras and his government were leading the Greek people down a path of bitter sacrifice and hopelessness”, accusing the Greek prime minister of having tricked his people into believing that a no would strengthen Greece’s negotiating position. His fellow social democrat, Ingrid Arndt-Brauer, the chairwoman of the Bundestag’s finance committee, said she had been expecting her committee to be called upon on Tuesday to begin the process of negotiating a fresh bailout package. The no vote, she said, had meant that could not happen. “Nobody had a wish to torture the Greeks – we are not terrorists – but to help them,” Arndt-Brauer said. “A yes vote would have signalled a preparedness to cooperate – at least on some reforms – for fresh help. But, right now, I see no credible basis to help Greece, none at all.” Members of the Bavarian Christian Social Union (CSU), who form the more rightwing element of Merkel’s conservative bloc, delivered a sharp rebuke to Tsipras’s government. Its general secretary, Andreas Scheuer, dismissed its members as “leftwing blackmailers and deceivers of the people, who will not manage to get anywhere with their dirty tactics”. He added: “Kali nichta, Hellas – Good Night, Greece!”. The radical far-left party, Die Linke, was the only party in the Bundestag to firmly welcome the Greek vote result, calling it a victory for democracy. “The Greeks have, for the second time, defended themselves against economic destitution,” the party leader, Bernd Riexinger, said. “They have said no to further austerity, to a false medication that is only ever making them sicker.” The vote, he said, had legitimised the negotiating leadership of Tsipras’s Syriza party, with which Die Linke is connected. “The negotiators must now get back to the table immediately and respect the democratic will of the Greek people,” he added. The head of Germany’s savings bank association led the response from German businesses, telling German media that the Greek people had spoken out against the rules of a single-currency union, and should now be preparing to leave the eurozone. “As a consequence, Greece should now be exiting the euro community,” Georg Fahrenschon, also a member of the CSU, said. Other German business leaders, including the head of the German exporters association, Anton Börner, also expressed their doubts that a so-called Grexit could be prevented. “It is now unavoidable,” he said. Meanwhile, initial soundings from governments across Europe indicated a mixed response to the result. While the government of Poland said it was now awaiting a Grexit, Italy said it was keen to continue negotiating. Spain’s prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, responded to the first exit polls by calling for an emergency meeting of his government’s commission for economic matters, which is due to meet on Monday to thoroughly analyse the results of the plebiscite, he announced in Madrid on Sunday evening. Responding to the no vote, Sarah-Jayne Clifton, director of the Jubilee Debt Campaign, said: “This is a historic defeat for austerity in Europe. Despite all the scaremongering, bullying and intimidation, the people of Greece have chosen hope over fear. Now, it is time for Europe’s leaders to respect democracy and take responsibility for a crisis that their banks and financial institutions helped create. “Greece needs substantial debt cancellation, as even the IMF has finally acknowledged. This will require honesty from European leaders that the real purpose of the bailouts was to save European banks. And it will require the type of leadership we saw from their counterparts in 1953 when they cancelled half of Germany’s debt. Justice, and democracy, demand nothing less.”

Already some German media are calling Merkel a failure for letting the Grexit crisis escalate to this referendum.France wants to negotiate as well.Huge pressure on Germany now after the "NO referendum .

[gattaca]

Monday will be bad for many stock markets.

[mishra]

If it was to referendum on debt, everyone in their family can hold one against the mortgage repayment to bank and vote against it as long as they were certain that there wont be any repo. I think, this just resigned FM of Greece has too much negotiating skill but too little financial skill. Last minute referendum moove of his was brilliant on negotiation wise but problem is Greece economy may have lost hundreds of millions if not billions by shutting itself in that one week. Tsipras is finally realizing this and has rightly fired him

[Crookbond]

Germany reacts to referendum with mix of anger, puzzlement and solidarity Angela Merkel ‘respects’ the result in Greece but heads to meet François Hollande as Europe’s leaders and their advisers plan next moves Already some German media are calling Merkel a failure for letting the Grexit crisis escalate to this referendum.France wants to negotiate as well.Huge pressure on Germany now after the "NO referendum .

Germany has this moral high horse on debt which they sit on and it's important to take them off from that place. Germany has NEVER paid its external debts - WW1 or WW2. That argument which Germans give is bollocks. Thomas Piketty has made some really nice points in an interview with a local German newspaper Die Zeit. https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

[Kalia_Test]

Greece - The biggest lie you are being told by media - link New and refreshing perspective on how the corrupt bankers are taking over the world and why Greece people should vote "NO" :nice:

[zen]

Austerity measures probably led Greece from recession to depression. In a recession, a country probably needs govt spending to fuse some life back in to the economy With 25% unemployment, 52% households' most important income is through pension. If you cut that down further w/o improving the economy and creating jobs, it would probably lead to anarchy in the future Now Greece did not manage its financials/account well but that issue is done. There would be a few avenues to cut costs but by and large the way forward is through reviving the economy

[G_B_]

Germany has this moral high horse on debt which they sit on and it's important to take them off from that place. Germany has NEVER paid its external debts - WW1 or WW2. That argument which Germans give is bollocks. Thomas Piketty has made some really nice points in an interview with a local German newspaper Die Zeit. https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

its not just them. entire northern euope supports the german stance.

[mishra]

its not just them. entire northern euope supports the german stance.

As per ft, Greece is surviving because of France and Italy. Merkel is allready meeting Hollande. I suspect QE has served its pupose verywell. Let these socialist workout how to stay in Euro or how to coin new currency.

[zen]

More on the pension: * As a % of GDP, Greece spends the highest on pension in EU (approx. 18%) * However, it should be noted that Greece's GDP has shrunk * Additionally, the demographics in Greece are not favorable - 20% of the population is over 65 * 45% of Greek receive a pension of Euro 665 per month, which is considered below the poverty line Below is the graph that shows what happens when you consider pension spending per 65+ It should also be noted that these numbers became possible after the (forced) reforms. There would still be a need to streamline or simplify the pension system, and cut down on frauds, early retirement loopholes (if they still remain) Since Greek households depend on pension, the majority of the money goes back to the economy 50% employment among the young, it is hard to see them paying pension for the grandparents soon Additionally, tax evasion needed to be fixed as well as that meant lost revenues for the Greek govt Tricky situation ....

[BeautifulGame]

As per ft' date=' Greece is surviving because of France and Italy. Merkel is allready meeting Hollande. I suspect QE has served its pupose verywell. Let these socialist workout how to stay in Euro or how to coin new currency.[/quote'] Christine Lagarde, Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF), has just issued a short statement on Greece: “The IMF has taken note of yesterday’s referendum held in Greece. We are monitoring the situation closely and stand ready to assist Greece if requested to do so.â€

[zen]

Ind has a lot of young population and needs land .... May be it should offer to buy Greece (including its debt) and make it a State of Ind :isalute: :P

[Crookbond]

Ind has a lot of young population and needs land .... May be it should offer to buy Greece (including its debt) and make it a State of Ind :isalute: :P

Even that is a better idea than the current proposal.

[zen]

Even that is a better idea than the current proposal.

a win-win ----> Ind's borders expand to Europe .... Investments flow in Greece .... Greeks also get their pension and lifestyle back :drinks: