Dennis Lillee or Glen Mcgrath?

[Harsh Thakor]

In an all-time xi an Aussie bowling pace attack could edge that of even an all-time world xi.Imagine Ray Lindwall bowling with Dennis Lillee,Glen Mcgrath and Jeff Thomson .Instead of 'Thommo' Alan Davidson or Keth Miller could come in.Lindwall,Lillee and Mcgrath comprise 3 of the most complete pace bowlers the world has ever seen.In this piece I am rating the 3 best Australian paceman in order of merit. Glen Mcgrath was the most complete post-war fast -medium pace bowler of all.He posessed all the essential components in almost perfect proportion be it pace ,bounce,control or movement.Above all he assesed a batsman's weaknesses like a computer.He posessed the consistency of a machine.There were more versatile bowlers,faster bowlers,bowlers who moved the ball more but none who could produce the perfect ball to capture an opponent's wicket.The batsman were perplexed whether to play back or forward.Richard Hadlee had equally good control but not as effective bounce or as subtle variations.Capturing 563 wickets at 21.63 arguably make him the finest of all pace bowlers . Dennis Lilleee posessed every component for the perfect fast bowler from pace to movement and control.The best exponent of the leg-cutter who had mastery in variations.Posessed an outstanding bouncer and could nip ball back in like nobody in his time.No paceman equalled Lillle's agression and hostility.There may have been quicker,more talented,more accurate pace bowlers but none equalled Lillee's determination to triumph against all odds.The centenary test of 1977 and the 1979-80 series in England rate a testimony to this.At his best in Kerry Packer supertests taking 79 scalps in 15 tests.Troubled Sir Viv Richards more than nay bowler of his time.Regarded as the best of all pace bowlers by Richard Hadlee,Martin Crowe,Greg Chappell,Richie Benaud,Colin Crof,Alvin Kalicharan and Ian Botham.Several experts rate Lillee the best but I feel Lillee did not posess Marshall's innovative ability on the flat sub-continent tracks or was a s lethal as Ray Lindwall at his best.On figures if you add Packer cricket Lillee could arguably be the best of all genuine quickies.He had more 31, 5 wkt.hauls and 7 -10 wicket hauls if you add Packer cricket which is significantly more than Marshall who had 22 ,5 wicket scalps and 4, 10 wicket hauls.Lillee was like a soldier and sculptor blended together. Why I rate Dennis Lillee ahead is because of his fierce determination and agression as a competitor.Glen Mcgrath posessed more control,Lindwall was quicker and craftier but could not match Lillee's ferocity.If it came to figures Mcgrath would win with 563 wickets at 21.64 as against Lillee's unofficial stats of 460 wickets in 89 tests at around 23.9.I am adding Lillee's 79 wickets in his 15 supertsets in the Packer era and in the games against Rest of the World in 1972.Never also forget that unofficially Lillee took 5 wickets 31 times and 10 wickets 7 times.Playing 35 more tests Mcgrath took 28 -5 wicket hauls and only 3-10 wicket hauls.Lillee also has 5 wickets per test,unlike Mcgrath.Glen Mcgrath also played in an era when Australia were at the very top while Lillee played in an era which was dominated a large part by the West Indies.True Lillee did not bowl well in the sub-continent but he only played 3 tests.He got 24 wickets in supertests in the West Indies in 1979.Would Mcgrath equal Lillee's 8-29 at Perth v Rest of the World in 1972 or his 7-83 v West Indies at Mebourne in 1981-82 or his 6-26 and 5-163 in the centenary test at Melbourne.Lillee posessed every component of a supreme fast bolwer from speed to,movement to control.Mcgrath did not have as sharp an outswinger ,leg-cutter or such agood nip backer or bouncer.Mcgrath ,no doubt was bowling metronome but on a placid pitch would be overshadowed by Lillee .Never forget Lillee bowled his best spells on placid surfaces of Melbourne,Oval and Adelaide.I will never forget his 7-89 against England at the Oval in 1980 on flat deck. More cricket experts rate Dennis Lillee ahead and select Lillee over Mcgrath in all-time xi.cricinfo all-time xi chose Lillee.Geoff Armstrong rated Lillee ahead. and in Richard Sydenham's all-time world xi's selection list 53 cricketers chose Lillee while only 8 chose Mcgrath in their all-time xi.It is worth reading the ratings of playesr like Martin Crowe,Richard Hadlee.Mudassar Nazar,Colin Croft,Lawrence Rowe,Ian Botham and Alvin Kalicharan who rate Lilleee in league of his own.I think may people in the sub-continent belittle the achievements of Lillee or underestimate his true greatness. In Anantha Narayana's rating of best bowlers in 2009 Lillee is rated ahead of Mcgrath with better match performance ratings.If you ***** strength of oposition,situation and conditions Lillee would edge Mcgrath.Lillee has a match performance rating of 21.83 as against Mcgrath's 18.94.Lillee's overall rating figure is 53.18 as against Mcgrath's rating of 50.80.This is without considering Lillee's scapls in Kerry Packer World series cricket.Imagine what Lillee's rating could have been addaing Packer stats. The following factors are used to analyze the match performances of bowlers. The total points secured is divided by the number of innspells (my own term indicating a qualifying bowling stint, taking care to exclude bowling efforts such as 5-0-17-0 et al). Base points - Wickets captured - Balls bowled - to recognize long spells - Batsmen dismissed - based on his score at time of dismissal Multiplicative factors - Overall quality of batting team (primarily top-7 batsmen) - Bowling accuracy (relative to the innings scoring rate) - Match-related pitch characteristics - An adjustment for pace bowlers bowling in the Asian subcontinent and spinners bowling outside - Match situation - Home/Away (incorporating relative team strengths) - Result (incorporating relative team strengths) - Series situation Career Achievements (Maximum 40 points) This is an equally important aspect of any such analysis. It also encompasses aspects of bowling which do not require consideration of the match conditions or situation. The only longevity measure is the "Career wickets captured" measure, carrying 5 points (6.2%). This will incorporate the following factors. - Career wickets captured (5 points) - Career wickets per innspell (5 points) - Bowling Strike rate-BpW (10 points) - Bowling accuracy-RpO (5 points) - Average Quality of batsmen dismissed - based on CtD bat avge (5 points) - Type of wickets captured - Top/Middle order/Late order (5 points) - Performance ratio - % of wickets captured to % of balls bowled (5 points). The figures below in order constitute BT Total Match Wkt Bow Bow Wkt Wkt Cons Peer Peer Pts Perf Pts StRt Acc BtAvg Qlty Idx S/R RpO Lillee D.K RF 53.18 21.83 4.53 7.81 3.68 4.92 2.18 3.55 2.81 1.88 McGrath G.D RFM 50.80 18.94 5.93 7.21 4.39 3.84 2.24 3.27 2.63 2.36 In this later later analysis below by the same author in 2010 Mcgrath overshadowed Lillee but that was not analyzing match performances.The points below ***** career wickets ,bowling strike rate,bolwing accuracy,average quality of wickets captured,away wicket bolwing average,percentage of top order wickets captured,percentage of team load borne,peer compariosn of average to all peer bowlers peer comparison to own team bowlers and performance in won matches.Mcgrath overall is at 85.38 ahead of Lillee at 80.76.This again excludes Lillee's wickets in Packer cricket from 1977-79 and against R.O.W.which amount to 105 in 21 games.Lille in this analysis only scored above Mcgrath in average quality of wickets captured,percentage of team load borne and Peer comparison of average to own team peer bowlers. McGrath G.D 85.38 7.04 8.18 8.98 7.46 9.70 10.00 6.85 9.84 7.49 9.84 Lillee D.K 80.76 4.44 8.17 7.61 9.54 8.70 9.33 7.62 8.59 7.74 9.01 Personally I rate Lillee ahead by inches and still feel he would trouble great batsman more than Mcgrath with his guile.On a seaming top Mcgrath may win but on flat track or a perfect wicket Lillee still wins my vote.

[Marut]

There is no connection between the title and contents?

[Harsh Thakor]

really sorry I have made the correct post do read it

[Harsh Thakor]

There is no connection between the title and contents?

really sorry I have made the correct post do read it

[MechEng]

Lillee any day. Mcgrath would have literally cried on the field if he had to bowl to Gavaskar, Boycott or Viv Richards. If Mcgrath had watched Gavaskar's 100 off 94 balls vs West Indies, he would have thought of wearing diapers before bowling to him.

[sensible-indian]

Lillee any day. Mcgrath would have literally cried on the field if he had to bowl to Gavaskar, Boycott or Viv Richards. If Mcgrath had watched Gavaskar's 100 off 94 balls vs West Indies, he would have thought of wearing diapers before bowling to him.

Talk about exaggeration. :giggle: McGrath can own batsman of any era.

[Raghav_12]

Lillee any day. Mcgrath would have literally cried on the field if he had to bowl to Gavaskar, Boycott or Viv Richards. If Mcgrath had watched Gavaskar's 100 off 94 balls vs West Indies, he would have thought of wearing diapers before bowling to him.

Dude, guy owned both top batsmen of his era, aka Tendulkar and Lara nd you think he would have cried bowling to likes of Boycott?? He would bowl left handed and still Boycott would not be able to play him. take that from me.

[rkt.india]

McGrath is one of the top 5 fast bowlers of all time, IMO.

[rkt.india]

Personally I rate Lillee ahead by inches and still feel he would trouble great batsman more than Mcgrath with his guile.On a seaming top Mcgrath may win but on flat track or a perfect wicket Lillee still wins my vote.

What is Lillee's record on flat SC pitches?

[vayuu1]

Pigie any day over Lillie, Lillie's record is not that great in subcontinent, while pigeon is good even in sc.

[Marut]

Personally I rate Lillee ahead by inches and still feel he would trouble great batsman more than Mcgrath with his guile.On a seaming top Mcgrath may win but on flat track or a perfect wicket Lillee still wins my vote. This is actually incorrect. McGrath was gun on wickets that don't assist pace bowling, while Lillee struggled in Asia. I have seen a lot of old timers rate Lillee higher than McGrath, probably because Lillee was an express pace bowler while MvGrath was more of medium-fast bowler. It is likely that Lillee would have troubled great batsmen more with his pace compared to McGrath. But troubling batsmen does not equal taking their wickets - McGrath would have been as successful as Lillee as far as taking wickets is concerned. 563 wickets at 21 apiece is phenomenal.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Anyone knows how many wickets Lillee has outside Australia and England?Look it up.

[Gollum]

Mcgrath.

[kosingh]

Fast bowlers hunt in pairs. A lot also depends on who is bowling from the other end

[Scarves]

Considering I've seen one bowl. Go with McGrath. Dude could bowl it on a small $2 coin.

[adi B]

Lol McGrath miles ahead

[HippoSucks]

Both should be in the list of the 5 best fast bowlers ever, but Lillee edges it over McGrath IMO. It is common practice to point out statistical flaws in a player that you haven't seen. He has played 1 test in Sri Lanka, 3 in Pakistan and 1 in West Indies. Statistically not doing well in 5 tests is not enough sample size to judge how he would have done outside of Australia/England/New Zealand if he had gotten more chances to play there. Not to mention that the bounceless pitches in Australia in the 1970s were not particularly helpful for fast bowlers. From what I've read (written by reputed writers), Lillee had more ability to swing the ball either way. And of course he was faster than McGrath by around 15 km/h.

[rkt.india]

Both should be in the list of the 5 best fast bowlers ever, but Lillee edges it over McGrath IMO. It is common practice to point out statistical flaws in a player that you haven't seen. He has played 1 test in Sri Lanka, 3 in Pakistan and 1 in West Indies. Statistically not doing well in 5 tests is not enough sample size to judge how he would have done outside of Australia/England/New Zealand if he had gotten more chances to play there. Not to mention that the bounceless pitches in Australia in the 1970s were not particularly helpful for fast bowlers. From what I've read (written by reputed writers), Lillee had more ability to swing the ball either way. And of course he was faster than McGrath by around 15 km/h.

With the kind of action he had, I doubt he could swing the ball both ways. Very similar to Steyn.

[Marut]

Both should be in the list of the 5 best fast bowlers ever' date=' but Lillee edges it over McGrath IMO. It is common practice to point out statistical flaws in a player that you haven't seen. He has played 1 test in Sri Lanka, 3 in Pakistan and 1 in West Indies. [b']Statistically not doing well in 5 tests is not enough sample size to judge how he would have done outside of Australia/England/New Zealand if he had gotten more chances to play there. Not to mention that the bounceless pitches in Australia in the 1970s were not particularly helpful for fast bowlers. From what I've read (written by reputed writers), Lillee had more ability to swing the ball either way. And of course he was faster than McGrath by around 15 km/h.

If there is no evidence, then the benefit of doubt should go to McGrath who demonstrated that he could play well in conditions like India. Lillee could have done that, done this - all this is speculation.

[HippoSucks]

If there is no evidence' date=' then the benefit of doubt should go to McGrath who demonstrated that he could play well in conditions like India. Lillee could have done that, done this - all this is speculation.[/quote'] Definitely, but people are saying he failed outside Australia/England/New Zealand which is simply wrong.