Marut Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Botham's career exhibits clear bifurcation. If I remember correctly' date=' he was either the fastest (or amongst the fastest) to 1000 runs and 100 wkts. During the early part of his career, he was brilliant with the ball and almost a batsman like avg with the bat. Later, for a large chunk of the career, he was pretty ordinary.[/quote'] Botham was another Lillee like player - he was good playing in England, Australia and NZ. He didn't have to face the West Indian side until 1980. Once he faced WI for the first time his wheels started coming off. Compare that to Kapil who raised his bar against the WI and fought fire with fire against the WI side. England does not have an ATG batsman since the 80s. They do not have an ATG bowler since the 80s. They found comfort in Botham - who was a really good all rounder, and hyped him as one of the greatest all rounders ever.
Vijy Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Botham was another Lillee like player - he was good playing in England, Australia and NZ. He didn't have to face the West Indian side until 1980. Once he faced WI for the first time his wheels started coming off. Compare that to Kapil who raised his bar against the WI and fought fire with fire against the WI side. England does not have an ATG batsman since the 80s. They do not have an ATG bowler since the 80s. They found comfort in Botham - who was a really good all rounder, and hyped him as one of the greatest all rounders ever. He was certainly one of England's best allrounders (but NOT the best).. and knew how to do extremely well against certain teams in certain conditions. Who's this ATG bowler from the 80s? Willis is the closest, but I don't rate him as an ATG. The last that I have seen (despite so-so stats) was John Snow.
FischerTal Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Forget subcontinental wickets, dennis lillee would be mediocre even on the current australian pattas. Mcgrath was a class apart. There will be no bowler like him ever again
HippoSucks Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 As I posted in another thread What did Lille do outside of the bowling friendly wickets of Australia England and New Zealand ? Its a joke when he is rated as among the top 3-4 fast bowlers in world cricket . If Jayawardne had born in Australia or England he would have been hyped as the greatest by these jokers no doubt .Same way how ridiculously M Johnson is hyped up nowadays . Lille has taken 6 wickets outside England Australia and NZL in his entire career . Let alone the chickening out of sub continent he didn't even play against WI in WI. McGrath is a bowler who has dominated all conditions. He played several Super Tests against West Indies in West Indies and destroyed them. Jayawardene failed outside Sri Lanka. Lillee didn't, he just did not play too much in Asia.
mancalledsting Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 well in proper test matches he played one match in west indies and was 0 wickets for 132 runs- international cricket is different pressure/status to WSC (no matter how the WSC defectors try to legitimise it as the UFC of cricket) We cannot conveniently assume a vs WI/Sub continent teams good performance when so many of his peers have failed before him in similar conditions
Rightarmfast Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 Lillee, just like Botham was over rated. It's simple as that. And he wasn't even that fast as he is made out to be. He must have been fast, no doubt. But not a 150+ bowler.
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 Forget subcontinental wickets' date=' dennis lillee would be mediocre even on the current australian pattas. Mcgrath was a class apart. There will be no bowler like him ever again[/quote'] Most unfair criticism of Lillee.His best performances were achieved on the flat tracks of Melbourne,Adelaide and the Oval.He also got 24 wickets in Packer supertests in 1979.Lillee had more craft than Mcgrath on flat tracks even if Mcgrath had an ultra-accurate line.Atleast give Lillee his due.
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 He played several Super Tests against West Indies in West Indies and destroyed them. Jayawardene failed outside Sri Lanka. Lillee didn't, he just did not play too much in Asia. Most relevant post.
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 What is Lillee's record on flat SC pitches? played in only 3 tests.How can you judge him?
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 Personally I rate Lillee ahead by inches and still feel he would trouble great batsman more than Mcgrath with his guile.On a seaming top Mcgrath may win but on flat track or a perfect wicket Lillee still wins my vote. This is actually incorrect. McGrath was gun on wickets that don't assist pace bowling, while Lillee struggled in Asia. I have seen a lot of old timers rate Lillee higher than McGrath, probably because Lillee was an express pace bowler while MvGrath was more of medium-fast bowler. It is likely that Lillee would have troubled great batsmen more with his pace compared to McGrath. But troubling batsmen does not equal taking their wickets - McGrath would have been as successful as Lillee as far as taking wickets is concerned. 563 wickets at 21 apiece is phenomenal. Adding unofficial tests Lillee's 460 wickets in 91 tests is also phenomenal.He has a big haul against arguably the best team of all time the 1980's West Indies.Lillee bowled against stronger opposition than Mcgrath and was champion on flat wickets like Oval,Adelaide and Melbourne.Lillee's agression and more all-round skill could turn games more than Mcgrath.79 wickets in 15 Packer supertests speaks for itself.
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 As I posted in another thread What did Lille do outside of the bowling friendly wickets of Australia England and New Zealand ? Its a joke when he is rated as among the top 3-4 fast bowlers in world cricket . If Jayawardne had born in Australia or England he would have been hyped as the greatest by these jokers no doubt .Same way how ridiculously M Johnson is hyped up nowadays . Lille has taken 6 wickets outside England Australia and NZL in his entire career . Let alone the chickening out of sub continent he didn't even play against WI in WI. McGrath is a bowler who has dominated all conditions. To correct you Lillee took 24 wickets in Packer supertests in West Indies in supertests against a champion West Indian team.Lillee only payed 3 tests in the sub-continent and took some of his best 5 or 10 wicket hauls on the flatter tracks of Adelaide,Melbourne and Oval.Mcgrath played for a champion team that was class above any side in the world while Lillee played against a much stronger West Indian team.Incorrect to undermine Lillee's greatness as he took 79 wickets in Packer cricket against world -class opposition.
rkt.india Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Most relevant post. WI had fast bouncy pitches at Sabina park and Barbados. Barbados was once considered to be one of the fastest pitches in the world along with Perth.
maniac Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 To correct you Lillee took 24 wickets in Packer supertests in West Indies in supertests against a champion West Indian team.Lillee only payed 3 tests in the sub-continent and took some of his best 5 or 10 wicket hauls on the flatter tracks of Adelaide' date='Melbourne and Oval.Mcgrath played for a champion team that was class above any side in the world while Lillee played against a much stronger West Indian team.Incorrect to undermine Lillee's greatness as he took 79 wickets in Packer cricket against world -class opposition.[/quote'] Lilee sat out of a lot of tests played in the S.C...those were the days when Aus and Eng used to send their B teams on a lot of occasions.....You are the stats guy...please see how many tours of SC were there during Lilee's career timeline and how many he ended up playing. May be he chickened out or maybe it was arrogance but the fact is a real skilled bowler is only measured by the way he does on difficult wickets. Akram,Mcgrath,Steyn all have superior records in most conditions and hence they are regarded as a notch above Lilee.
Marut Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Adding unofficial tests Lillee's 460 wickets in 91 tests is also phenomenal.He has a big haul against arguably the best team of all time the 1980's West Indies.Lillee bowled against stronger opposition than Mcgrath and was champion on flat wickets like Oval' date='Adelaide and Melbourne.Lillee's agression and more all-round skill could turn games more than Mcgrath.79 wickets in 15 Packer supertests speaks for itself.[/quote'] Packer wickets were bowling friendly. Moreover, Lillee did well against WI only at home. He played just one test in the WI. See, Lillee played 65 out of 70 tests in Oz, England and NZ - all friendly and familiar conditions. He seems to have conveniently avoided all tours where he knew he would be unsuccessful. At the best, he is about equal to the likes of Sehwag as batsman, who had considerable success in some places but was ordinary else where.
maniac Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Packer wickets were bowling friendly. Moreover' date=' Lillee did well against WI only at home. He played just one test in the WI. See, Lillee played 65 out of 70 tests in Oz, England and NZ - all friendly and familiar conditions. He seems to have conveniently avoided all tours where he knew he would be unsuccessful. At the best, he is about equal to the likes of Sehwag as batsman, who had considerable success in some places but was ordinary else where.[/quote'] Agree...At best he is in the 2nd tier category along with Waqar,Donald etc.
thongale Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Waqar is not 2nd tier. The most effective fast bowler in test history in his pomp.
Harsh Thakor Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 Packer wickets were bowling friendly. Moreover, Lillee did well against WI only at home. He played just one test in the WI. See, Lillee played 65 out of 70 tests in Oz, England and NZ - all friendly and familiar conditions. He seems to have conveniently avoided all tours where he knew he would be unsuccessful. At the best, he is about equal to the likes of Sehwag as batsman, who had considerable success in some places but was ordinary else where.[/quote Lillee played 5 supertests in West Indies in 1979 taking 24 wickets at an average of around 26.
Marut Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Lillee averaged 28.39 during the WI Packer series. Nothing extraordinary given the bowling friendly conditions. During the same tour five WI bowlers averaged better than Lillee - Holding, Garner, King, Andy Roberts and Austin, and other WI bowlers were close on heels.
CG Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Most unfair criticism of Lillee.His best performances were achieved on the flat tracks of Melbourne' date='Adelaide and the Oval.He also got 24 wickets in Packer supertests in 1979.Lillee had more craft than Mcgrath on flat tracks even if Mcgrath had an ultra-accurate line.Atleast give Lillee his due.[/quote'] Melbourne always had help for seamers. Modern tracks are flatter than that Era. Mcgrath was successful all over the world.Also u do not think he was a tearway quick like Thompson.
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