Move over, new brand of fearless indian cricketics here

[youngindia]

In international cricket it is all about doing justice to your role.  Jadeja comes in to bat at no. 7 or no. 8 in  LOIs.   His role there should be to up the scoring rate and play quick-fire cameos....which would mean a SR of 90+ in ODIs and 135+ in T20s.  He is way below that. 

If we consider all 3 formats and the IPL...he has a disappointing SR in ODIs ( 84.9 ), T20Is ( 86.7) and IPL( 123.6 ).  

Can you stop citing low sample sets? this is a schoolboy error...Only for ODI  and IPL there is  a decent set. Other stats belong to the garbage can unless you don't understand the implications

So only the strike rate needs an increase...and that comes with  more comprehensive shotmaking skills..he needs to up his levels one or two.

not at all anywhere near impossible ...just needs a top notch makeup..

 

 

 

 

[youngindia]

 

Jaddu needs work on his grip and stance. He always seems cramped when he tries to play shots. His limited leg side game does limit his big hitting prowess at the moment.

he is a big striker of the ball...period..

yes since his injury I have not seen big hitting from him in IPL or internationals...but he looked different in NZ to play variety of shots...I am hoping he goes back to that and builds from there...injuries do affect players

[express bowling]

 

 

Can you stop citing low sample sets? this is a schoolboy error...Only for ODI  and IPL there is  a decent set. Other stats belong to the garbage can unless you don't understand the implications

So only the strike rate needs an increase...and that comes with  more comprehensive shotmaking skills..he needs to up his levels one or two.

not at all anywhere near impossible ...just needs a top notch makeup..

From an earlier post of yours in this thread--

 

"   who played that innings in NZ when we required 29   off 2 overs and 18 off 1 over with one wicket left? was it his ghost?

did he bribe his way to a 32 average after over 100 matches?   "

 

 

You started off this debate citing just 2 innings of Jadeja as one of the proofs of his batting prowess.   i wonder why !    Isn't it a very low sample set  !!   There are a few examples of bowlers, with limited batting ability, who have played a couple of such knocks under pressure.

The low sample size issue is applicable to his T20I career....I agree.

In case of test matches , his batting has been pathetic.  He has had problems against the short ball, the swinging ball, the seaming ball and even the spinning ball.  He has got out to rash shots when the team needed him to stay. He does not have a clear idea about his off stump and has a tendency of slicing deliveries. Compare this with his bowling in those same tests where he has tried his utmost best and has taken wickets whenever an opportunity arose. His batting stats maybe ignored in the 24 test innings he has batted but , if he does not rectify these issues, he will find it very hard to do well consistently with the bat in tests.  He has been able to play just one fifty plus knock in 24 innings because of these issues.

In ODIs.....an average of 32 is just about ok, nothing great  ( Could have been very good for a finisher if SR were very high ).  He has batted in 87 ODI innings and has been not out 30 times ( 34 %  of times ) and this is making his average look decent. The not outs are often not helping the team because of lower than required SR. 

Leaving aside statistics, Jadeja looks like a very good spinner in the sub-continent but does not give this feeling as a batsman , in any form of the game.  He has to improve every which way as far as batting is concerned.  I will be more than happy if he does so. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by express bowling

[youngindia]

From an earlier post of yours in this thread--

You started off this debate citing just 2 innings of Jadeja as one of the proofs of his batting prowess.   i wonder why !    Isn't it a very low sample set  !!   There are a few examples of bowlers, with limited batting ability, who have played a couple of such knocks under pressure.

 

Wrong..i am not using stats here. That was an instance of an exceptional knock at international level...more for subjective understanding and debate

when you use data, you have to produce a very large sample set to give some semblance of reliability. period.otherwise its unreliable and cannot be converted into reliable info

and I have seen  you  make this error before as well,

The low sample size issue is applicable to his T20I career....I agree.

In case of test matches , his batting has been pathetic.  He has had problems against the short ball, the swinging ball, the seaming ball and even the spinning ball.  He has got out to rash shots when the team needed him to stay. He does not have a clear idea about his off stump and has a tendency of slicing deliveries

Test is a complete test of cricketing skills. much better batsmen than him like hayden have succeeded only later in life after a long struggle in test cricket. I am not a fan of allround ability in tests.  nothing to talk about here

 

In ODIs.....an average of 32 is just ab out ok, nothing great  ( Could have been very good for a finisher if SR was very high ).  He has batted in 87 ODI innings and has been not out 30 times ( 34 %  of times ) and this is making his average look decent. The not outs are often not helping the team because of lower than required SR. 

 

You are missing the main point. a 30+ average is serious batting ability. the fact is you guys cannot blindly take him lightly ignoring such evidence.... my beef is a few posters are taking him very lightly and not using data points at well. as if likes and dislikes are facts.

he may not be fullfledged matchwinner or complete shotmaker as yet.... but is it easy to be one?....is being a world class matchwinner so easy?

its lots and lots of  tremendous work 

you are ignoring that  many of his matches includes matches he played as under 25 and as work in progress ...that's not indicative of his final level....he was just thrown to the lions in 2009..i myself argued against him for the 2011 world cup

he is not a finished product yet.....if he got a chance like manish pandey (his u19 mate) now, he would not have to take so much flak.manish is right now in his bed in period....puts it in perspective is n't it?

Giving chances to u25 players works very well with the gavaskars, wiliamsons, kohlis ..but ishant and jadeja were more mortal talents.

it was not right to give ishant or jadeja chances at such a young age ...but our cupboard was bare 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[maniac]

 

Wrong..i am not using stats here. That was an instance of an exceptional knock at international level...more for subjective understanding and debate

when you use data, you have to produce a very large sample set to give some semblance of reliability. period.otherwise its unreliable and cannot be converted into reliable info

and I have seen  you  make this error before as well,

Test is a complete test of cricketing skills. much better batsmen than him like hayden have succeeded only later in life after a long struggle in test cricket. I am not a fan of allround ability in tests.  nothing to talk about here

 

You are missing the main point. a 30+ average is serious batting ability. the fact is you guys cannot blindly take him lightly ignoring such evidence.... my beef is a few posters are taking him very lightly and not using data points at well. as if likes and dislikes are facts.

he may not be fullfledged matchwinner or complete shotmaker as yet.... but is it easy to be one?....is being a world class matchwinner so easy?

its lots and lots of  tremendous work 

you are ignoring that  many of his matches includes matches he played as under 25 and as work in progress ...that's not indicative of his final level....he was just thrown to the lions in 2009..i myself argued against him for the 2011 world cup

he is not a finished product yet.....if he got a chance like manish pandey (his u19 mate) now, he would not have to take so much flak.manish is right now in his bed in period....puts it in perspective is n't it?

Giving chances to u25 players works very well with the gavaskars, wiliamsons, kohlis ..but ishant and jadeja were more mortal talents.

it was not right to give ishant or jadeja chances at such a young age ...but our cupboard was bare 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

By the same account...Binny's knock in England against Anderson/Broad was even better.....now wait....You will start calling me a Binny fan etc which means you have not read some of the posts I made about him before so anyway that's not the topic here.....

How many impact innings has Jadeja played? He is our our lower order allrounder/hitter.

He has played one too many T20 knocks when I have not seen him play one impact knock in that format.

I think Jadeja has done a great job re-inventing himself as a frontline spinner but his batting in internationals is pathetic and here is a guy who hit 3 300's in domestics.

Now let us say he is not a hitter but a perfect batsman...we all saw his technique in test cricket which is non existent.

Now as expressbowling has pointed out there are a lot of notouts in Jadeja's career and how many of those notouts are impact innings like Bevan or say even MSD?

He clearly has some insecurities about his spot as an allrounder,the way he has batted recently which raises doubts.

I know his T20 innings in the worldcup and the SRT runout was way-back in the past but nothing tells me that he has evolved a a lot since then as a batsman.

1 or 2 innings are not a great example.....there is enough stats in front of us to determine how good Jadeja is.....Even in one of the England game in 2014 he was hitting after the match was over and till then was only taking singles and that too after he already reacehd a decent score and the game was out of hand.....things like these don't go unnoticed.

Now in tests he knows he won't survive anyways and he goes about hacking from ball 1 when the situation demands him to apply himself....that is another kind of selfish too.

[express bowling]

 

Wrong..i am not using stats here. That was an instance of an exceptional knock at international level...more for subjective understanding and debate

when you use data, you have to produce a very large sample set to give some semblance of reliability. period.otherwise its unreliable and cannot be converted into reliable info

and I have seen  you  make this error before as well,

Test is a complete test of cricketing skills. much better batsmen than him like hayden have succeeded only later in life after a long struggle in test cricket. I am not a fan of allround ability in tests.  nothing to talk about here

 

You are missing the main point. a 30+ average is serious batting ability. the fact is you guys cannot blindly take him lightly ignoring such evidence.... my beef is a few posters are taking him very lightly and not using data points at well. as if likes and dislikes are facts.

he may not be fullfledged matchwinner or complete shotmaker as yet.... but is it easy to be one?....is being a world class matchwinner so easy?

its lots and lots of  tremendous work 

you are ignoring that  many of his matches includes matches he played as under 25 and as work in progress ...that's not indicative of his final level....he was just thrown to the lions in 2009..i myself argued against him for the 2011 world cup

he is not a finished product yet.....if he got a chance like manish pandey (his u19 mate) now, he would not have to take so much flak.manish is right now in his bed in period....puts it in perspective is n't it?

Giving chances to u25 players works very well with the gavaskars, wiliamsons, kohlis ..but ishant and jadeja were more mortal talents.

it was not right to give ishant or jadeja chances at such a young age ...but our cupboard was bare 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

The point you are missing is that dry statistics in cricket carry little meaning by themselves, even if the sample size is large. There have been and are many players, with tremendous Ranji Trophy averages over many many matches, who have done nothing at international level ....because, to succeed in international cricket, lots of additional qualities are required. Generally.... certain types of players succeed.  Like batsmen with great temperament, either good technique or great hand-eye co-ordination, good timing, ability to play 140 k + deliveries, low mental block against the fast bouncing ball.  etc.

As I said before, his average of 32 in 87 ODI innings has to be seen in perspective...it includes 30 not outs and have been scored at less than required SR.  ...this, by itself,  does not point to serious batting ability.

Jadeja has many problems with his batting , that I stated in my earlier posts, and he has to rectify them first. His progress as an international batsman in the future would depend a lot on this.  I don't mind a work-in-progress but, whether he will be able to do this with his full-fledged responsibilities as a bowler, I don't know.  

Whenever I state stats..... they are more a corroboration of good qualities, or the lack of them,  in a cricketer, that I feel exists.   By itself, a low sample size carries almost no meaning....I agree.... but, when you see a cricketer who has all the qualities to succeed in internationals and and has done very well in 30 odd matches ....it gives some additional support to what you are  thinking anyway.  Similarly in case of a player who is coming across as someone who lacks the qualities of a successful international cricketer.

Edited February 22, 2016 by express bowling

[youngindia]

By the same account...Binny's knock in England against Anderson/Broad was even better.....now wait....You will start calling me a Binny fan etc which means you have not read some of the posts I made about him before so anyway that's not the topic here.....

 

then why do you conduct PR campaigns for them? 

not everyone can be taken at their word ...the agenda is clear from the actions

as for your  highly prejudiced observations..... pls spare me will you...its tedious and tiresome  

[youngindia]

 There have been and are many players, with tremendous Ranji Trophy averages over many many matches, who have done nothing at international level ....because, to succeed in international cricket, lots of additional qualities are required.

Irrelevant...we are talking international stats here.

As I said before, his average of 32 in 87 ODI innings has to be seen in perspective...it includes 30 not outs and have been scored at less than required SR.  ...this, by itself,  does not point to serious batting ability

there are serious gaps in your understanding here..

First of all why we should consider averages  over a long time? it indicates how long he lasts and how consistent he is over a period of time...the stats alone is not important..its about the strategic implications

 

you can certainly say a gavaskar or richards or tendulkar didn't average 50 without serious class right?

 a batsmans average is a function of his foundation and class ...

hence you would clearly find a difference between specialists ,allrounders and tailenders...there is no way a tailender is going to average 26 over a long period and a bowling allroudner is not going to average 40

ODI averages are to be intrepreted diffeently ofcourse....as batting positions matters...but a 30 average by any position over a long period  is serious batting ability

.i am only quoting for you guys...i don't need such evidence ...i can see jadeja today on tv and can immediately say this guy can bat a bit though he is no specialist...i have enough grounding in cricket for that

think more what do averages mean and what can you glean from it.,

 

by that i don't mean a particular phase or low sample set

Also understand how a player evolves...he does not reach his true level overnight

 

Jadeja has many problems with his batting , that I stated in my earlier posts, and he has to rectify them first. His progress as an international batsman in the future would depend a lot on this.  I don't mind a work-in-progress but, whether he will be able to do this with his full-fledged responsibilities as a bowler, I don't know.  

Only now he is reaching a stage where players are close to their real level..he is avreaing decently despite not being a senior player in age

what i am saying is understand many of the matches he played as a junior is not indicative of his final level..

All junior players will face issues and have to solve problems before being a success...it goes without saying

People expecting 21yr olds and 23 yr olds to be a roaring success...it does not work out that way at an average case..

 

... but, when you see a cricketer who has all the qualities to succeed in internationals and and has done very well in 30 odd matches ....it gives some additional support to what you are  thinking anyway.  

Without reaching his real level, a player has to show  results?

often inferior players have got results before superior players..

hence not reliable

Follow stats once a player reaches maturity and becomes established ...now it makes sense..

Before that he was *evolving*

Thats the perspective  lacking here 

 

 

 

[moniker]

Jadeja may average 50+ for all I care, but it counts for zilch when it comes to batting at no 7. Strike rate is all that matters at that position.

Faulker strikes at 111, Corey Anderson strikes at 114. These are the kind of players we want to be batting at no. 7 in ODI cricket, their averages be damned.

Averages are a good measure of top order batsmen who lay the foundation. For lower middle order bats it's the strike rate that counts.

[adi B]

Jadeja is one batsman who you can't trust at all at #7 ,he is a very unreliable batsman and not good at power hitting.giving one or two instances out of 126 odis won't help his cause in anyway

[Adi_91]

Jadeja may average 50+ for all I care, but it counts for zilch when it comes to batting at no 7. Strike rate is all that matters at that position.

 

Faulker strikes at 111, Corey Anderson strikes at 114. These are the kind of players we want to be batting at no. 7 in ODI cricket, there averages be damned.

 

Averages are a good measure of top order batsmen who lay the foundation. For lower middle order bats it's the strike rate that counts.

Agreed, he is a bowler who can bat basically and can only rotate strike and hit few boundaries.

[rkt.india]

Jaddu can hit but his range of strokes is very limited and he isnt inexperienced anymore.

[express bowling]

 

you can certainly say a gavaskar or richards or tendulkar didn't average 50 without serious class right?

 a batsmans average is a function of his foundation and class ...

hence you would clearly find a difference between specialists ,allrounders and tailenders...there is no way a tailender is going to average 26 over a long period and a bowling allroudner is not going to average 40

ODI averages are to be intrepreted diffeently ofcourse....as batting positions matters...but a 30 average by any position over a long period  is serious batting ability

 

 

Let's keep things simple here

Jadeja's  current role as a lower-middle order batsman in ODIs and T20s ...is to play at a high SR.  He is failing to do that and always have in general.

Can he improve ? ....Obviously he can.   

When he does improve and become fit for the above-mentioned role , he can play as a proper all-rounder.   Till that time, he should play as a bowler and not bat at no. 7  ( his most common ODI batting position )

Edited February 17, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

 

 

Jadeja may average 50+ for all I care, but it counts for zilch when it comes to batting at no 7. Strike rate is all that matters at that position.

 

Faulker strikes at 111, Corey Anderson strikes at 114. These are the kind of players we want to be batting at no. 7 in ODI cricket, their averages be damned.

 

Averages are a good measure of top order batsmen who lay the foundation. For lower middle order bats it's the strike rate that counts.

 

 

Exactly.  The modern LOI games require very high SR batsmen batting in the lower-middle order.  Faulkner has an average of 39.7 after 50 ODI games too....to go with his SR of 111 batting primarily at 8.

Corey Anderson has SR of 114 batting at 6 usually

Luke Ronchi has SR of 117 after 70 games.batting at 7 usually

Jos Butler, who has batted at 7 or 6  for most of his career,  has SR of 119 and average of 35 after 70 matches.

Maxwell has SR of 125 batting at 5 or 6 usually, 62 games

Jadeja has SR of 84 batting at no.7 usually in ODIs.....SR of 89 in the last 4 years , 77 games,  during which these fantastic SRs  have been  notched up by other teams. 

Dhoni has SR of 92 in the last 4 years, 75 games, batting at 6 most of the times.

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by express bowling

[Lannister]

Jadeja should be no-where near the test squad when playing in overseas conditions. And FFS he's not an all-rounder, it's not even worth discussing that topic.

I can't believe that someone like Mishra had to miss out because of this Joker. 

[youngindia]

 

 

 

 

Faulker strikes at 111, Corey Anderson strikes at 114. These are the kind of players we want to be batting at no. 7 in ODI cricket, their averages be damned.

 

 

 

Anderson has ever played only two matches at no 7...Faulkner has played only 10 matches at no 7 , not played even 60 matches and scored even 1000 runs..

Jadeja has played 97 matches at no 7..

a totally misleading comparison..

 

[youngindia]

Jaddu can hit but his range of strokes is very limited and he isnt inexperienced anymore.

he is reaching the age where players start to reach their peak level...that's all I am saying..giving matches at 19 to the likes of ishant and jadeja does not help as I said.

 

While giving chances to players under 25, give it to those who stand above their peers in terms of cognitive skills,problem solving skills and mental development,..

only kohli and rahane qualify here...rohit,raina,ishant and jadeja all shud have been given chances later

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by youngindia

[youngindia]

Exactly.  The modern LOI games require very high SR batsmen batting in the lower-middle order.  Faulkner has an average of 39.7 after 50 ODI games too....to go with his SR of 111.  

Corey Anderson has SR of 114 batting at 6 usually

Luke Ronchi has SR of 117 after 70 games.batting at 7 usually

Jos Butler, who has batted at 7 or 6  for most of his career,  has SR of 119 and average of 35 after 70 matches.

Maxwell has SR of 125 batting at 5 or 6 usually, 62 games

Jadeja has SR of 84 batting at no.7 usually in ODIs.....SR of 89 in the last 4 years , 77 games,  during which these fantastic SRs  have been  notched up by other teams. 

Dhoni has SR of 92 in the last 4 years, 75 games, batting at 6 most of the times.

 

there are so many things wrong here..

bringing in no5 and 6 who are expected to have meaty batting ability...only ronchi has played a majority at no 7 and he is in totally different stage of his career...

butler has played around half.. 

no account for what stage of their career the players are in.

 

is it a good comparison to compare a developing 26 yr old with a 34 yr old who has already played around five years in his prime? 

not that players in the same age group progress at the same rate.

Fundamentally flawed and superficial.

if someone finds their feet at 25, some other may find his feet at 28.

if sachin can make hundreds in Australia at 18,steve Waugh was not even in the team for india's tour of 1991 and went 28 tests without a hundred..

 

So keep these things in mind... 

 

 

[moniker]

You don't keep an under performing player for too long in international cricket hoping he would deliver after years of playing, especially when there are replacements available to try out.

In international cricket you should field the best eleven cricketers available in the country that can win you matches.

Jeopardizing the current team performance by looking too far out into the future is silly.

Jadeja has been given enough chances. If he's really capable of doing well he can go back to the domestics and prove his mettle. Given the competition for places it is unfair on those on the bench to lose out to an under performing player who has frustratingly been given a free run for too long.

[express bowling]

there are so many things wrong here..

bringing in no5 and 6 who are expected to have meaty batting ability...only ronchi has played a majority at no 7 and he is in totally different stage of his career...

butler has played around half.. 

no account for what stage of their career the players are in.

 

is it a good comparison to compare a developing 26 yr old with a 34 yr old who has already played around five years in his prime? 

not that players in the same age group progress at the same rate.

Fundamentally flawed and superficial.

if someone finds their feet at 25, some other may find his feet at 28.

if sachin can make hundreds in Australia at 18,steve Waugh was not even in the team for india's tour of 1991 and went 28 tests without a hundred..

 

So keep these things in mind... 

 

 

You are thinking from Jadeja's perspective and not from the perspective of team India.

Team India needs  2 high SR batsmen immediately who can bat between 5 and 7 in ODIs and T20s. ...otherwise we are at a disadvantage while playing against Australia, NZ, England etc.

Let Jadeja take time to develop his batting,  ...I have no problem.   In the meantime let us try to find all-rounders  who can bat at 5,  6   or 7 and play with SR of 110 + in ODIs  and 140 + in T20s.

p.s-  ...Faulkner, Butler and Anderson are all 25 and Maxwell is 27....Jadeja is 27 now and playing ODIs for 7 years .( Looking at his bowling in the last few years, Jadeja comes across as a fast learner with sufficient maturity.....his batting has not developed sufficiently most probably because he has put most of his  thoughts  and efforts  into his bowling )

Edited February 17, 2016 by express bowling