Rishabh Pant: A few thoughts

[Muloghonto]

8 hours ago, MK55 said:

Good that he's introduced in international cricket. Also want him in ODIs asap. This would expose him to top quality fast bowling which cannot be sought in domestics. At this stage Im more concerned about his role as a power hitter than a keeper. 

For tests, its fine if he is held back for some time if his keepjng is not upto the mark. But I wouldnt make him play Ranjis at the cost of missing LOIs. Development of his batting is even more important for me.

That doesn't make sense. India has plenty of world class batting options. We have zero world class keeping options. Developing him as a keeper is more important IMO.

 

[mancalledsting]

Considering we have batting spots up for grabs in our ODI team, he ideally should have been blooded in during the upcoming ODI series. We did the same with Rohit Sharma by delaying and delaying- and yes constant IPL/Ranji did make him pick up bad habits which is why he underperformed when he eventually got his chance. 

 

Ideal timeline for him would be ODI run now, with transition into test team in 1-2 years time if ODI run goes well. He's shown potential in Indian conditions against an international bowling lineup the other day....has basic credentials to at least be tried in ODIs

Edited January 14, 2017 by mancalledsting

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

That doesn't make sense. India has plenty of world class batting options. We have zero world class keeping options. Developing him as a keeper is more important IMO.

 

there is no guarantee that he will become a great keeper just by keeping in domestic cricket, but a huge chance that he might get lost among dozens of other batsmen in domestic cricket.

[sandeep]

51 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

I just hope for his sake Pant pays off.

 

Lots of pressure on the kid even before debut....

I hope for Team India's sake we find a long-term 'keeper who bats better than Saha, and keeps as well or better - whether its Panth, Kishan or Samson.  

 

The hype around Panth reminds me a lot of the over-eager anointing of Unmukt Chand as the next great Indian player, before he had done anything.  So much so, that the kid was already keeping a diary that he was going to release as his "memoirs" - and he was barely 20.  He had already been signed up by a player agent, marketing contracts, all that jazz.  Fizzled out though when it came to performances.  

 

Now before all the pant-gasmers jump all over me, I know Panth has done really well at FC level, and better than Chand in his first 10 ranji games.  

[BeautifulGame]

And Parthiv never became a high class keeper even after so many years of FC cricket. So saying going back will turn Pant into world class keeper is fued. For example, Dinesh Karthik who was a brilliant keeper when he debuted but his batting was iffy and then Dhoni came along, Karthik got dropped, went back to FC and since then his keeping has only gotten worse. Before that, he was better than both PP and Dhoni as a keeper.

Karthik keeping definitely haven't gotten worse .Just drops the odd clangers regularly which was the issue with him even when he started .Just don't have the consistency to be at international level

[BeautifulGame]

Raina and Yuvraj got found out against the short ball. More relevant to Raina. No amount of exposure to domestic trundlers would have helped in getting rid of this deficiency. Someone like Raina had to keep improving his game by tackling his weaknesses.

Anyways by power hitting Im not just referring to blind slogging but a batsman who is fearless with good technique and ability to change the momentum/tempo of the game when required. Someone like Butler and De Kock. And attacking batsmen are not at a disadvantage in test cricket. They are equally likely to succeed and can be game changers in that format if they play sensibly.

If that was the case Ganguly would never have made into a test cricketer .So would 90% batsmen in Pakistan and SriLanka.

The problem with Yuvi wasn't his ability to play short ball But issues outside off stump and ability to construct an innings.He was pure talent when he came into the Indian team.

Even scored a great century in the Pakistan series in 04 and forced into the team.But we then forced him to open in Australia series (because no slot in middle order was available) where he struggled to adapt like most others would .So his failure was never to do with short ball .

Problem was he never spent enough time in test matches in his earlier years .He broke into the ODI team very earlier and most of his earlier years he was part of the test squad (iirc) without playing much Which meant he never had the opportunity to develop as a test batsman

[Muloghonto]

28 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

there is no guarantee that he will become a great keeper just by keeping in domestic cricket, but a huge chance that he might get lost among dozens of other batsmen in domestic cricket.

But keeping for years in a 4 day game is a way safer bet to develop your keeping game than hanging around the sidelines of the international team or getting chances in test cricket before he is ready.

 

[sandeep]

21 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Karthik keeping definitely haven't gotten worse .Just drops the odd clangers regularly which was the issue with him even when he started .Just don't have the consistency to be at international level

And that's really the thing - once you get past the formative years, its really hard to get rid of such flaws.  Whether its Parthiv, Karthik or even a Dhoni.  That's why it is a critical decision how to handle Panth's development at the moment.   And if it means that we have to hold off for a few games or a season while he develops, and we miss out on his batting potential for that short time-frame, is that really such an unaffordable thing for Team India?  Isn't it worse, from a cost-benefit perspective, to risk his wicket-keeping development getting stunted?  

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

And that's really the thing - once you get past the formative years, its really hard to get rid of such flaws.  Whether its Parthiv, Karthik or even a Dhoni.  That's why it is a critical decision how to handle Panth's development at the moment.   And if it means that we have to hold off for a few games or a season while he develops, and we miss out on his batting potential for that short time-frame, is that really such an unaffordable thing for Team India?  Isn't it worse, from a cost-benefit perspective, to risk his wicket-keeping development getting stunted?  

how Parthiv could pass his formative years when he was back to domestic cricket by 19-20?

[Muloghonto]

26 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

If that was the case Ganguly would never have made into a test cricketer .So would 90% batsmen in Pakistan and SriLanka.

The problem with Yuvi wasn't his ability to play short ball But issues outside off stump and ability to construct an innings.He was pure talent when he came into the Indian team.

Even scored a great century in the Pakistan series in 04 and forced into the team.But we then forced him to open in Australia series (because no slot in middle order was available) where he struggled to adapt like most others would .So his failure was never to do with short ball .

Problem was he never spent enough time in test matches in his earlier years .He broke into the ODI team very earlier and most of his earlier years he was part of the test squad (iirc) without playing much Which meant he never had the opportunity to develop as a test batsman

Thing with Ganguly is that the short ball in the body wasn't a weakness for him like it is with Raina or many other subcontinental bats.

He was a God on the off-side. Even McGrath would get flayed through the covers if he pitched it up to Ganguly and packed the offside with 9 fielders. 

So after 2-3 seasons, fast bowlers started to focus exclusively on bowling to him on his body with a packed leg-side field and his leg side game wasnt as strong as his offside game. 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

how Parthiv could pass his formative years when he was back to domestic cricket by 19-20?

Parthiv didn't go to domestic cricket with a clean slate.  He was publicly humiliated after being given a really long rope at the national level, where he just kept getting worse and worse.  I still remember him taking a dolly of a catch in a home test, and then raising hands to the heavens with this massive expression of relief on his face, he may even have dropped to his knees.  I mean, he was totally shot psychologically at that point, on top of having technical issues.  It probably took him years to recover from that, knowing that he could have been a 15 year player for India, but blew it by personally effing it up.  

 

Do we want to risk a similar scenario for Panth, where he might be a good keeper overall, but with a few flaws. But if things go south and his flaws end up costing the team - like Parthiv's did, it may make it harder for him to bounce back.  And take that risk for what? so that he can tonk a few more runs than Saha?  I mean, we are not that desperate for him in tests.  There's just no need for rushing him.  Thoda wait kar liya to, what's the big deal? 

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Parthiv didn't go to domestic cricket with a clean slate.  He was publicly humiliated after being given a really long rope at the national level, where he just kept getting worse and worse.  I still remember him taking a dolly of a catch in a home test, and then raising hands to the heavens with this massive expression of relief on his face, he may even have dropped to his knees.  I mean, he was totally shot psychologically at that point, on top of having technical issues.  It probably took him years to recover from that, knowing that he could have been a 15 year player for India, but blew it by personally effing it up.  

 

Do we want to risk a similar scenario for Panth, where he might be a good keeper overall, but with a few flaws. But if things go south and his flaws end up costing the team - like Parthiv's did, it may make it harder for him to bounce back.  And take that risk for what? so that he can tonk a few more runs than Saha?  I mean, we are not that desperate for him in tests.  There's just no need for rushing him.  Thoda wait kar liya to, what's the big deal? 

He was not good enough and is still not good enough.if one can't improve playing international cricket, they won't improve by playing low quality domestic. Look at Dhoni, he wasn't a teen prodigy, he was a late Bloomer, was very average with the gloves when picked but his batting forced selectors to bet on him while Parthiv was a teen prodigy, was supposed to be a big keeping hope for the country. Everyone thought he was a very good keeper when debuted but wasn't to be.

[sandeep]

Just now, rkt.india said:

He was not good enough and is still not good enough.if one can't improve playing international cricket, they won't improve by playing low quality domestic. Look at Dhoni, he wasn't a teen prodigy, he was a late Bloomer, was very average with the gloves when picked but his batting forced selectors to bet on him while Parthiv was a teen prodigy, was supposed to be a big keeping hope for the country. Everyone thought he was a very good keeper when debuted but wasn't to be.

Boss, not everybody can do what Dhoni did - manage to improve while living up to high expectations in the glare of the national spotlight.  And Dhoni was a grown man when he did it, not a 20 year old boy.  Point is, you want to put players in positions that give them the best chances of success.  

 

Especially critical position players like 'keeper-batsmen, or allrounders - its not like we have a wealth of options at those positions, where if one guy doesn't click, we can always try another one.  

[express bowling]

Let us watch Pant keeping and batting in a few games before passing strong judgements about his current state of preparedness for International cricket.

 

From whatever little I have seen him as a batsman....he looks ready as a batsman for international cricket and i am very hopeful ..... but I would want more proof.

 

The next Ranji season is 10 months away and rather than sitting at home, he would do well to bat and keep in LOIs, A team games etc.  I would want him to play the next Ranji season though, at the cost of missing some LOIs.

 

LOIs and IPLs enable  young players to get used to international pace while both batting and keeping and that would definitely help a player who has finished one full FC season.

Edited January 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

He was not good enough and is still not good enough.if one can't improve playing international cricket, they won't improve by playing low quality domestic. Look at Dhoni, he wasn't a teen prodigy, he was a late Bloomer, was very average with the gloves when picked but his batting forced selectors to bet on him while Parthiv was a teen prodigy, was supposed to be a big keeping hope for the country. Everyone thought he was a very good keeper when debuted but wasn't to be.

 

Sorry but that is nonsense. International cricket can be too big a gulf for a u20 player to cross, especially when we are talking about a physical, reactive job involving muscle memory. 

IMO, expectations for the next 2-3 years need to be managed. Pant needs exposure to international cricket, but only exposure, thats it. 

The most important 'make or break' phase of his career is going to be the next 2 Ranji seasons, where he has to put in the hard yards.

One thing is certain - even if Pant has strong keeping fundamentals, he is NOT ready to be a keeper without years of practice at the 4-day game, honing his muscle memory & strength.

 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

One thing is certain - even if Pant has strong keeping fundamentals, he is NOT ready to be a keeper without years of practice at the 4-day game, honing his muscle memory & strength.

 

Healy debuted in tests after only  one and a half  to two years of FC cricket.

Edited January 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Healy debuted in tests after only  one and a half  to two years of FC cricketr

That is still 1 more season than Pant.  And Healy is still the greatest keeper of the last 40 years. 

He was also 22 when he debuted, not 20. Last i checked, nobody is raving about Pant being a generational keeping talent.

 

The other thing is, Australia didnt have viable keeping options till Healy showed up. They used Wayne Phillips, a very ordinary keeper. We have keeping options at the moment.

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Muloghonto

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

That is still 1 more season than Pant.  And Healy is still the greatest keeper of the last 40 years. 

He was also 22 when he debuted, not 20. Last i checked, nobody is raving about Pant being a generational keeping talent.

 

But honing muscle memory and strength would still apply to Healy.

 

Even Alan Knott debuted at age 21 after 2 to 3 FC seasons.

 

Let us watch Pant keep and see where he stands now.  He should definitely play the next Ranji season and 4 day A team games.

 

We also have Ishan Kishan who has played 3 FC seasons already.

Edited January 14, 2017 by express bowling

[G_B_]

5 hours ago, sandeep said:

I hope for Team India's sake we find a long-term 'keeper who bats better than Saha, and keeps as well or better - whether its Panth, Kishan or Samson.  

 

The hype around Panth reminds me a lot of the over-eager anointing of Unmukt Chand as the next great Indian player, before he had done anything.  So much so, that the kid was already keeping a diary that he was going to release as his "memoirs" - and he was barely 20.  He had already been signed up by a player agent, marketing contracts, all that jazz.  Fizzled out though when it came to performances.  

 

Now before all the pant-gasmers jump all over me, I know Panth has done really well at FC level, and better than Chand in his first 10 ranji games.  

this is exactly what I fear.

 

People say Sachin debuted when he was 16. But that was a different era. We are living in the social media era with quick gains.

 

Its not only Pant, I worry about Shaw from Mumbai as well. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, G_B_ said:

this is exactly what I fear.

 

People say Sachin debuted when he was 16. But that was a different era. We are living in the social media era with quick gains.

 

Its not only Pant, I worry about Shaw from Mumbai as well. 

Plus people forget, batting/bowling are very different skill sets than keeping. You CANNOT become a competent keeper until you keep for day after day to good bowlers. You CAN become a great batsman (Sachin) or bowler (Akram) practicing on your own in your backyard.