About time SC banned Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and RSS

[mishra]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Beating people up for no reason isn't a serious crime ?

Sorry bhai, that just proves my point: India is still not civilized enough to realize that the fundamental value of freedom of the individual is the cornerstone of a free society. Ie, assault on person cannot go unpunished, in overwhelming majority of cases. 
Sorry, but where I live, any of the following : rape, killing, assault, torture, are punished, in overwhelmingly large % of cases. The ones that go scot free are practically statistical freak-incidents. 

 

Beating your own child is crime in west. Even now, in India, Most parent are ok if a teacher beats a child for studies as long as its one cane or that wooden scale.

 

Also, Instead of living in la la land , Where you live, chk the stats of rapes reported vs convicted.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, mishra said:

Beating your own child is crime in west. Even now, in India, Most parent are ok if a teacher beats a child for studies as long as its one cane or that wooden scale.

 

Also, Instead of living in la la land , Where you live, chk the stats of rapes reported vs convicted.

Beating your own child is not a crime in most of the west actually. Because most western governments realize the need to physically discipline a kid by designated figures of authority in the kid's life. Aka parents and maybe grandparents.(within reason of course. Obviously it should be a crime to beat your kid so bad that you break bones- which have been known to happen from time to time in India) 

Beating up someone else's kid is universally a crime in the west. See the difference ? 

 

Besides, beating a child is irrelevant to the discussion, since i already posted evidence of SS goons beating up adults. 

As for rape, bhai rape is a you say-no-i-say kind of crime, where it will fundamentally be unjust to the victims on average, due to 'lack of concrete evidence of rape & innocent until proven guilty PoV'. But suffice to say, in the west, every single time it is 'not a you say-i-say' situation for rape- like gang-rape- it almost always gets punished. 

So like i said, until Indians like yourself start changing mentality that beating up people is a crime that requires punishment in each and every single case, India will remain socially and culturally backwards. Because virtually everyone who is ahead of us - be it the west or westernized countries or even China- beating up people is almost universally punished (exception of party members in China). 

That isn't la-la land, that is the fundamental reality of India vs more developed nations than India. 

 

[zen]

Appears as if the libtard is again wasting time with nonsense

 

As the saying goes - dont feed the troll

[mishra]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Beating your own child is not a crime in most of the west actually. Because most western governments realize the need to physically discipline a kid by designated figures of authority in the kid's life. Aka parents and maybe grandparents.(within reason of course. Obviously it should be a crime to beat your kid so bad that you break bones- which have been known to happen from time to time in India) 

Beating up someone else's kid is universally a crime in the west. See the difference ? 

 

Besides, beating a child is irrelevant to the discussion, since i already posted evidence of SS goons beating up adults. 

As for rape, bhai rape is a you say-no-i-say kind of crime, where it will fundamentally be unjust to the victims on average, due to 'lack of concrete evidence of rape & innocent until proven guilty PoV'. But suffice to say, in the west, every single time it is 'not a you say-i-say' situation for rape- like gang-rape- it almost always gets punished. 

So like i said, until Indians like yourself start changing mentality that beating up people is a crime that requires punishment in each and every single case, India will remain socially and culturally backwards. Because virtually everyone who is ahead of us - be it the west or westernized countries or even China- beating up people is almost universally punished (exception of party members in China). 

That isn't la-la land, that is the fundamental reality of India vs more developed nations than India. 

 

^ It is just to make a point that societies are different and deal with various issues differently. Be it the personnel life or social life. So dont import western ideas and say Indians system and Indians are Chewt$ya when you know Indian Police struggle to operate a computer while your country has a very advanced hacking cell which can break into any computer and the got so many cameras fitted that if they wish they can monitor every citizens ars ehole.

 

Again, Just like number of son count gives real sense of security to a villager same way these groups also serve purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

[mishra]

And offcourse, You try to lecture people to ban RSS, when today, Its RSS which is to be credited  to be nursery of modern nation builders.

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, mishra said:

^ It is just to make a point that societies are different and deal with various issues differently. Be it the personnel life or social life. 

Bhai, this is not about different societies dealing with issues differently. Thats just an excuse, because in reality, every society deals with things 'differently'. But as i said, in civilized societies, crimes against person don't go unpunished. This is what makes India backwards today, fundamentally as a society. That i can beat you up and get away with it 50% of the time. Thats batting at same level of uncivilized as Africa.

 

Quote

So dont import western ideas and say Indians system and Indians are Chewt$ya when you know Indian Police struggle to operate a computer while your country has a very advanced hacking cell which can break into any computer and the got so many cameras fitted that if they wish they can monitor every citizens ars ehole.

What western ideas ? West is not the only place where people have come up with civilized ideas of person & rights. India also did it on its own in the past, where our society was a 'lot like the west today/ancient Greece minus slavery' - people had fundamentally inalienable rights, something that got enforced 10 times better in the days of the Mauryas and Guptas than even today in India. Because that is a value system, not just a function of wealth. China had zero wealth till 30 years ago and like i said- any random person didnt get away with committing crime there either. Sure, they had their corruption issues (and still do) with the Chi-com party members being a law unto itself. But in India, any 2 bit man has a 50-50 chance of beating you up on the street and going scot-free for it. 

Your 'don't import western ideas' is nothing more than knee-jerk 'hum kisi se kum nahin' mentality. Because if you knew your history, you'd also know that these 'western concepts' were also once our own concepts. But as the saying goes- before there is a cure, first there has to be acceptance that there is a problem. And it is clear that Indians like you, don't see the problem with crimes against person or see it as a 'small problem'. 

 

Quote

 

Again, Just like number of son count gives real sense of security to a villager same way these groups also serve purpose.

Every group serves a purpose. The biggest purpose these type of Gunda groups serve, is to show the way to power in India is through gunda-raj and getting away with it. And whatever 'other purpose' they serve that is positive, can easily be served in a better way.

But as i said, India isn't civilized enough for it yet.

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, mishra said:

And offcourse, You try to lecture people to ban RSS, when today, Its RSS which is to be credited  to be nursery of modern nation builders.

The Indian army and RAW says hello. RSS is not a nation-builder. It is a religion-builder. Fundamental drive of RSS is its BS religious ideology, not nation building. And whatever 'nation-building they do', its  no different than the sycophant evangelicals in the US. Lip service to nation-building, total service to soul harvesting. RSS is in the same business.

All the RSS is, is a 70 years too late, typical Indian 'weak sauce' version of  'Hitler's youth'. Sad thing is, hitler's youth were actually late teens/early 20s kids with more guts than the fully grown RSS chaddis. 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Muloghonto

[surajmal]

"Spend money". What a radical idea. There is a reason , libtardism is found in ppl with double digit IQ. 

If only Indians spent money on problems , we will have no problems... Why didn't u say so before. Second largest population; give them a new objective in life - "MAKE MORE MONEY".

Now I am gonna go clean myself for having engaged with a chutiyum sulphate.

[mishra]

25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Bhai, this is not about different societies dealing with issues differently. Thats just an excuse, because in reality, every society deals with things 'differently'. But as i said, in civilized societies, crimes against person don't go unpunished. This is what makes India backwards today, fundamentally as a society. That i can beat you up and get away with it 50% of the time. Thats batting at same level of uncivilized as Africa.

 

What western ideas ? West is not the only place where people have come up with civilized ideas of person & rights. India also did it on its own in the past, where our society was a 'lot like the west today/ancient Greece minus slavery' - people had fundamentally inalienable rights, something that got enforced 10 times better in the days of the Mauryas and Guptas than even today in India. Because that is a value system, not just a function of wealth. China had zero wealth till 30 years ago and like i said- any random person didnt get away with committing crime there either. Sure, they had their corruption issues (and still do) with the Chi-com party members being a law unto itself. But in India, any 2 bit man has a 50-50 chance of beating you up on the street and going scot-free for it. 

Your 'don't import western ideas' is nothing more than knee-jerk 'hum kisi se kum nahin' mentality. Because if you knew your history, you'd also know that these 'western concepts' were also once our own concepts. But as the saying goes- before there is a cure, first there has to be acceptance that there is a problem. And it is clear that Indians like you, don't see the problem with crimes against person or see it as a 'small problem'. 

 

Every group serves a purpose. The biggest purpose these type of Gunda groups serve, is to show the way to power in India is through gunda-raj and getting away with it. And whatever 'other purpose' they serve that is positive, can easily be served in a better way.

But as i said, India isn't civilized enough for it yet.

 

Bold 1. Because India hasnt got money/resources. Its developing nation, Struggling to meet ends because in West  One person in a family of 5 earns vs India 1 person in a family of 100 earn (thats number represent taxpayers to population ratio). Root cause is same in Africa too.

 

Bold 2. You are going tangential. I am not talking about philosophy. I am not judging if teacher caning a student for failing his studies is right or wrong. I am saying its right in India as society and teacher and students think so.

 

Bold 3: Tell a better way, The better way biproducts are only good at making intolerance and award vaapasi. Deviants like followers of Jaipraksah Narain and Lenin are Laloo and Yechuri.

 

Bold 4: You need to grow up. Over 1/6th of world population living in poor infrastructure, poor sanitation, poor medical, poor educational,  poor employment but without violence. There is something truely commendable among religion culture of the people of that land.

[mishra]

43 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The Indian army and RAW says hello. RSS is not a nation-builder. It is a religion-builder. Fundamental drive of RSS is its BS religious ideology, not nation building. And whatever 'nation-building they do', its  no different than the sycophant evangelicals in the US. Lip service to nation-building, total service to soul harvesting. RSS is in the same business.

All the RSS is, is a 70 years too late, typical Indian 'weak sauce' version of  'Hitler's youth'. Sad thing is, hitler's youth were actually late teens/early 20s kids with more guts than the fully grown RSS chaddis. 

 

 

chk most leaders in current government, They are all some way or other, Inspired/linked to RSS. So RSS must be doing something right. EOD on RSS front as You present your fancy as facts.

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, mishra said:

Bold 1. Because India hasnt got money/resources. Its developing nation, Struggling to meet ends because in West  One person in a family of 5 earns vs India 1 person in a family of 100 earn (thats number represent taxpayers to population ratio). Root cause is same in Africa too.

 " not having money or resources" is not an excuse. Our nation is not in default mode and i would like to remind you that there are plenty of countries who have 'no money'- like Bolivia or Ukraine that have justice systems that work 10 times better and faster. 
Also, India has money- it spends billions on nifty little toys for the military that it most likely won't ever use and is of a lower immediate need than justice system. So if India can spend 5 billion dollars on an aircraft carrier, it can fix its law and order situation.

 

Quote

 

Bold 2. You are going tangential. I am not talking about philosophy. I am not judging if teacher caning a student for failing his studies is right or wrong. I am saying its right in India as society and teacher and students think so.

"Thinking" something is right doesnt make it so. In Saudi, people think its right to stone women for showing her legs. It doesnt make it right- not for them or for anyone else. Right or wrong is about pros and cons, about effect and logic.  The problem i am talking about, that India needs to accept, is that no modern superpower or even a great power has gotten to that status without having a firm grip on law and order at home front. That doesnt mean 'lack of riots = law and order solved', it means protecting the constitutional rights of the individual and the state to the full extent of the law. 

 

Quote

 

Bold 3: Tell a better way, The better way biproducts are only good at making intolerance and award vaapasi. Deviants like followers of Jaipraksah Narain and Lenin are Laloo and Yechuri.

 

Lets do a little math here. Currently, India has about 21,000 judges. SC judges make $1500/month. HC judges make $1200/month. 

If someone becomes a judge at 45 (average age to be a judge) and serves 30 years, that is  0.54 million dollars on the entire career of a judge.

INS Vikrant is currently costing India 3.5 billion dollars and is expected to cost 4 billion dollars when its all done. 
For that price, we can afford 7400 judges or in other words, have a 33% increase in the number of judges.

So the 'better way' would be for India to dedicate 5% more of our budget per annum towards providing more judges, training more police and upgrading on facilities like police equipment, court equipment, courthouses, jails, police stations, etc.

 

We are the only nation in the world where beating up people or causing a riot has 50-50 chance of conviction but are playing around with an aircraft carrier or sending missions to Mars. Those things are good for our prestige and ego, but does nothing to help the average Indian- whereas law and order improvement improves quality of life for every single law abiding Indian. 

 

 

[Tibarn]

21 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Except for the fact that the definition between 'liberal' and 'political left' are not interchangable. You don't get to conflate the socialist left with the communists with the liberal capitalists either.

The paper used an arbitrary definition, which you straw-manned into a comparison, for the purposes of conflating Maoist violence with the liberals.

 

When you cite Maoist violence as 'liberal', it is conflating liberal = communist.

Rinse and Repeat from the post you quote. 

 

Strawman. False, you didn't read the paper.  You are making up arguments that the paper didn't make while attempting and failing to knock them down. 

 

Strawman. Show me where I said liberal = communist. The paper clearly defines the terms it uses. I use the terms that the paper uses. I haven't produced any interpretation or taken any creative license with the paper. 

 

Ad hominem, you can't produce a single source to support your original argument therefore you attempt to attack the source. The definition isn't arbitrary because you say so. Provide a source. 

 

No true scotsman, redefiniton: You don't get to make up your own definition of.  Attempt to discredit another's argument based off of 0 sources and your own personal feelings, when the person only used the definition available within the paper itself.  You aren't a credible source.

 

Since you won't read the paper. I will post the relevant portions myself:

 

The research used a Likert scale, nothing misleading or biased about it.

The researchers talk about liberal ideology in the paper, seen above highlighted.

Now using a dictionary:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/liberalism

Quote

In the twentieth century, a viewpoint or ideology associated with free political institutions and religious toleration, as well as support for a strong role of government in regulating capitalism and constructing the welfare state.

That should be the end of that Non-recognition fallacy: A deluded fallacy in which one deliberately chooses not to publicly "recognize"  ground truth or common phrases.  Both the researchers and the participants knew what was being asked and what was being measured. 

 

22 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The A priori nature of your argument is already exposed when you want to drive the agenda that hindu fanatics, unlike all other right wing fanatics, are somehow more peaceful than humanist liberals, by trying to conflate communists with liberals.

You can continue to strawman, ad hominem, argument and argue from ignorance. Don't waste my time. 

 

Incorrect use of a priori. I provided data not dogma. You provided your opinion, ie dogma, nothing of any value. You didn't provide data. Your argument is worthless and your own bias is exposed without the requisite data.  

 

Tu quoque: you tried to hide that your entire thread is an a priori argument by trying and failing to turn it back around on me. You haven't provided data or sources that back up your OP. You decided on a conclusion and now are trying to show it to be true, without the help of any objective data.

 

I repeat : your entire thread, starting from the first post is an a priori argument. 

Your entire thread is an  A Priori Argument : A corrupt argument from logos, starting with a given, pre-set belief, dogma, doctrine, scripture verse, "fact" or conclusion and then searching for any reasonable or reasonable-sounding argument to rationalize, defend or justify it. Certain ideologues and religious fundamentalists are proud to use this fallacy as their primary method of "reasoning" and some are even honest enough to say so. Provide the data.

 

Provide the data

 

Quote

Even in the west, religious criminals outweigh atheist criminals by a factor of 10 times

Provide the data

 

Quote

Besides, the data is easily available that the bulk majority of prisoners in prisons around the world are right wing religious fundamentalists.

Provide the data if it's so easily available  Oh wait, you can't 

 

1) provide evidence for your original statement in the OP of the thread: If you don't this entire thread is worthless propaganda on your end. (Not unexpected). Don't waste my time with pseudo-intellectual nonsense. If you are so sure, and everything you claim is so easily available, you should be able to provide it. Especially since you came to the conclusion before even seeing any data. 

 

Your claim:

Quote

Even in the west, religious criminals outweigh atheist criminals by a factor of 10 times.

So first you conflate atheist for left as seen above. 

Then you conflate religious with right.

Then you claim that in the west that atheists are outnumbered 10:1 by religous people in prisons.  When my source shows

 

Atheists are outnumbered 3:1  at best in the UK and your source says

Quote

Nevertheless, 6.6% of the prison population declares “other” and 19.7% declared no religion. This compares to a predicted 17.5% non-religious population from Statistics Canada. 

 Which is at best 5 to 1. Your own source proved the 10 to 1 was more nonsense.

 

Then you decide to spin what your "source" says with vague language: 

Quote

This shows that in the US, liberal atheists are under-represented in the prison system as opposed to right wing leaning folks, while in Canada and UK, these numbers are closely corresponding to the overall population figures of liberal-atheists and the right wing.

These numbers don't closely correspond(+5% and +2.2 percent isn't "close"), if you don't have a statistical test to say that they closely correspond. Let's see some p values or some z-scores to back that up. Your source didn't claim what you claim. 

 

Then you once again conflate atheist with left and religious with right. 

 

Then you try to say that the US data shows atheists are underrepresented, when the "source" you provided was based on this:

So pew decided to ask random chaplains around the US for an estimate, how scientific. The same source says:

Quote

 (the opposite of trends found in the US where 11% of the prison population is non-religious, compared to 15-35% of the public).

 15-35%, what a range of possible values.

 

With all of that, none of the sources mention liberal as equivalent to atheist or right as equivalent to religious. Quite an assumption, one that's not backed up by anything you provided.  

 

Even still, there is nothing you provided that shows any trend in the "West," as two of the countries, UK and Canada show over-representation of Atheism.

 

Then, you want to used unclear data from the West to make a statement regarding the rest of the world. To support this:

Quote

Besides, the data is easily available that the bulk majority of prisoners in prisons around the world are right wing religious fundamentalists.

 

 

All that and there still isn't any data pertaining to your OP, so this thread is an a priori argument in its entirety.

 

If there is so much data that supports your claims and they are so readily available, then let's see it.

 

[Muloghonto]

 

10 hours ago, surajmal said:

"Spend money". What a radical idea. There is a reason , libtardism is found in ppl with double digit IQ. 

If only Indians spent money on problems , we will have no problems... Why didn't u say so before. Second largest population; give them a new objective in life - "MAKE MORE MONEY".

Now I am gonna go clean myself for having engaged with a chutiyum sulphate.

More like prioritize spending money over law and order over nifty toys for the military and actually do something productive with exponential income tax receipts received, thanks to the Adhar card registration systems, etc. 

But hey, don't expect chaddis to know much about 'nation-building'. Its not like they've had any experience in it.

 

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Rinse and Repeat from the post you quote. 

Same for your A-priori arguments.

 

Quote

 

Ad hominem, you can't produce a single source to support your original argument therefore you attempt to attack the source. The definition isn't arbitrary because you say so. Provide a source. 

Already evidenced how definition is arbitary, since your source uses spurious charts to 'legitimize' nonsensical conclusion about higher prevalence of crimes amongst liberals than the mean average- especially given how skewed its in the opposite in actual prison populations in the US. Source provided, already debunked.

 

Quote

Incorrect use of a priori. I provided data not dogma. You provided your opinion, ie dogma, nothing of any value. You didn't provide data.
 

Now, this is straight up lying from your part. I also provided data- which you clearly did not read.And that data, unfortunately for your 'paper', is pretty decisive. 

 

Quote

These numbers don't closely correspond(+5% and +2.2 percent isn't "close"), if you don't have a statistical test to say that they closely correspond. Let's see some p values or some z-scores to back that up. Your source didn't claim what you claim.

Evidence of double standards to your strawman argument : neither does your sources.

 

 

 

[zen]

The libtard hasn't won any debate yet this forum .... and like a gambler, who has lost big keeps getting in to more debates / discussions to see if he can finally win one 

 

To feel good about himself, he would keep repeating the same things ad nausuem hoping to bore the other poster to death 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

The libtard hasn't won any debate yet this forum .... and like a gambler, who has lost big keeps getting in to more debates / discussions to see if he can finally win one 

 

To feel good about himself, he would keep repeating the same things ad nausuem hoping to bore the other poster to death 

 

 

 

Zen failing to find his 'zen' at igoring me, i suppose. Too bad he couldn't handle being outed for running away from the beef eating thread.

[zen]

Appears as if some dumbwit may have quoted me despite already mentioning him to not quote me directly .... May be he found similarities b/w himself and the loser mentioned 

 

If so, case closed QED

 

[Deleted_User_1]

yeh ka chewtiyapa hain bhai! Itni acchi khasi tomator kharab kiya!!

[diga]

Whats the difference between RSS/AIMPLB/Priests council or such bodies.. 

[mishra]

12 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 " not having money or resources" is not an excuse. Our nation is not in default mode and i would like to remind you that there are plenty of countries who have 'no money'- like Bolivia or Ukraine that have justice systems that work 10 times better and faster. 
Also, India has money- it spends billions on nifty little toys for the military that it most likely won't ever use and is of a lower immediate need than justice system. So if India can spend 5 billion dollars on an aircraft carrier, it can fix its law and order situation.

 

"Thinking" something is right doesnt make it so. In Saudi, people think its right to stone women for showing her legs. It doesnt make it right- not for them or for anyone else. Right or wrong is about pros and cons, about effect and logic.  The problem i am talking about, that India needs to accept, is that no modern superpower or even a great power has gotten to that status without having a firm grip on law and order at home front. That doesnt mean 'lack of riots = law and order solved', it means protecting the constitutional rights of the individual and the state to the full extent of the law. 

 

Lets do a little math here. Currently, India has about 21,000 judges. SC judges make $1500/month. HC judges make $1200/month. 

If someone becomes a judge at 45 (average age to be a judge) and serves 30 years, that is  0.54 million dollars on the entire career of a judge.

INS Vikrant is currently costing India 3.5 billion dollars and is expected to cost 4 billion dollars when its all done. 
For that price, we can afford 7400 judges or in other words, have a 33% increase in the number of judges.

So the 'better way' would be for India to dedicate 5% more of our budget per annum towards providing more judges, training more police and upgrading on facilities like police equipment, court equipment, courthouses, jails, police stations, etc.

 

We are the only nation in the world where beating up people or causing a riot has 50-50 chance of conviction but are playing around with an aircraft carrier or sending missions to Mars. Those things are good for our prestige and ego, but does nothing to help the average Indian- whereas law and order improvement improves quality of life for every single law abiding Indian. 

 

 

Man! With due respect do you really read what you write. Bhai! Paisaa! Economics is what makes a nation Strong. If we didnt had money to spend on Military, Forget China, Piddi Pakistan would be helping itself to use our arsehole. You know what happened to Ukraine despite massive Western/EU support. Why Bolivia, People in Bhutan are happier too. But India is over 1 billion.

 

If you still dont get it, As a thumb rule, Money spent on Infrastructure Science Education and economic growth means "Investing in future" of the nation. And about default! Chk the Yeild on Government bond. Lower it is, better it is.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/government-bond-yield

 

Now, Make up your own mind. whether 5% or some quantum increase on judiciary is more important or "Investing in future"  is more important. I will prefer later