Thommo - how quick was he?'

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

 but this notion that other were/are faster just because of technological advances is ridiculous. 

 

So how are people sprinting faster, running faster, swimming faster, jumping longer, lifting more weights etc. with passing eras  ?

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

47 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yes. More than running it's the transfer 9f of energy that is important. Did you see kemar roach when he came in, he would barely jog in but bowled 150kph. In the end, generating pace depends more on elasticity and flexibility of muscles and right position when delivering and not running. Same with Yadav, he just jogs in.

running generates the energy. 

No running = nothing to transfer. This is why bowlers do not bowl standing. 

I don't care who jogs in and who runs like Usain bolt. Simple physics tells us, the faster you run, the more momentum you generate and if you can transfer that effectively, you bowl very fast. 

Watch Holding bowl. He had excellent speed in the run-up and is still rated as one of the best, purest actions for a fast bowler.

 

[Vilander]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

running generates the energy. 

No running = nothing to transfer. This is why bowlers do not bowl standing. 

I don't care who jogs in and who runs like Usain bolt. Simple physics tells us, the faster you run, the more momentum you generate and if you can transfer that effectively, you bowl very fast. 

Watch Holding bowl. He had excellent speed in the run-up and is still rated as one of the best, purest actions for a fast bowler.

 

There is no proof of Holding bowling 150 all day. Neither is there proof of Thomson ever bowling 160. Its just the facts. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by Vilander

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, Vilander said:

There is no proof of Holding bowling 150 all day. Neither is there proof of Thomson ever bowling 160. Its just the facts. 

The words of the experts in the matter are enough. 

 

[express bowling]

Expert 1 -- Sourav Ganguly saying during  CT 17 that Amir is bowling high 140s.  Telecasters immediately showing fastest ball as 144 k. ..... Ganguly says again after a couple of balls .... Amir bowling high 140s.

 

Expert 2 -- Manjrekar asking WI bowling coach during WI 2016 tour.  Why are Holder and Brathwaite, such big and tall fellows, not bowling 90 mph but bowling 80 mph ?  Coach says that pace is not dependent on big physique .... Manjrekar continues .... but surely you would expect such big guys to bowl 90 mph !

 

Expert 3 -- Roberts saying to Harsha Bhogle in a TV interview that he and the other top WI quicks used to bowl 160 k +.

 

Many people here have seen / listened to these incidents on TV.

 

How dependable are the words of experts when it comes to bowling speeds  ?

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

We are not talking about general population here , I gave PT Usha as reference here because she is once in generation athlete.People like her are not some product of nutritional or technological improvements.

 

Govt has not stopped giving opportunities the fact is there is lot more awareness for sports now a days especially in India. So your statement that govt has stopped giving opportunity is totally wrong.You think bureaucratic impediment was less during PT Usha's era.

 

We have not seen any WI people in basketball. Holdings and Garners are not born everyday. So it does not matter how far technology/nutrition has improved you need people who have ability to bowl fast. Bowling fast is a gift which you have to be born with it cannot be taught .WI had that great era of fast bowlers not because of any system they just were blessed and got lucky.

 

Guys like Thompson are not product of any system .

 

 

If she was once in a generation athlete, she would come 1st in Olympics, not 4th. Get your facts right!

 

"

Govt has not stopped giving opportunities the fact is there is lot more awareness for sports now a days especially in India. So your statement that govt has stopped giving opportunity is totally wrong.You think bureaucratic impediment was less during PT Usha's era.

"

While you are making assumptions, about govt and facilities, I have played for Karnataka and I know facts first hand. And the facilities are very little. If you want to make such comments, then please first do a research and then make conclusions.

 

"

Bowling fast is a gift which you have to be born with it cannot be taught .WI had that great era of fast bowlers not because of any system they just were blessed and got lucky."

 

I think there have been plenty bowlers just as good as those west indian names you are counting, and plenty more who have been better than them. So your point does not hold water.

And what I actually believe is, bowling fast does come natural, but what is really required is will power and a vision to be faster. If fast bowling couldnt be taught, then Bhuvi, who used to bowl in 120's, wouldnt be touching 145 today, which he does now!. And that is only possible due to his will power and the modern facilities and techniques! Prove me wrong!

[rkt.india]

28 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The words of the experts in the matter are enough. 

 

Cannot take words of experts at all. They are all hyperbolic. Don't take them literally. Anyway none those experts had any quick exactly a bowler is bowling as no speed guns and Batsmen batting without gears will 130 look like 150.

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

If she was once in a generation athlete, she would come 1st in Olympics, not 4th. Get your facts right!

 

"

Govt has not stopped giving opportunities the fact is there is lot more awareness for sports now a days especially in India. So your statement that govt has stopped giving opportunity is totally wrong.You think bureaucratic impediment was less during PT Usha's era.

"

While you are making assumptions, about govt and facilities, I have played for Karnataka and I know facts first hand. And the facilities are very little. If you want to make such comments, then please first do a research and then make conclusions.

 

"

Bowling fast is a gift which you have to be born with it cannot be taught .WI had that great era of fast bowlers not because of any system they just were blessed and got lucky."

 

I think there have been plenty bowlers just as good as those west indian names you are counting, and plenty more who have been better than them. So your point does not hold water.

And what I actually believe is, bowling fast does come natural, but what is really required is will power and a vision to be faster. If fast bowling couldnt be taught, then Bhuvi, who used to bowl in 120's, wouldnt be touching 145 today, which he does now!. And that is only possible due to his will power and the modern facilities and techniques! Prove me wrong!

Also It is not like WI lack fast bowlers now. Edwards, best, roach, Gabriel, Taylor have been as quick as any in their history.

[Muloghonto]

34 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Cannot take words of experts at all. They are all hyperbolic. Don't take them literally. Anyway none those experts had any quick exactly a bowler is bowling as no speed guns and Batsmen batting without gears will 130 look like 150.

I don't think they are hyperbolic and as i said, i'd rather trust the word of experts than non-experts like yourself.

I have already said how the experts came to the conclusion of how fast people were in pre-speed gun days: by playing against them and comparing them to people in the speed-gun days.

A guy who's faced Waqar in 94 and Marshall in 87 can compare quite well who is/was faster.

 

And no, gear or no gear, a 130kph bowler doesnt feel like 150kph.

 

[express bowling]

I am not aware of anyone who has played both Thommo at his peak and Lee / Akhtar at their peaks ..... so how would the experts know about their relative speeds any better than dedicated fans.

 

Same logic with Holding and Starc.

 

If it is a matter of watching from outside then experts don't have much special advantage over other dedicated fans regarding gauging speeds.

 

What the experts know better than fans regarding speeds is .... like Gavaskar knowing much better than fans whether Holding was quicker or Roberts.

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Expert 1 -- Sourav Ganguly saying during  CT 17 that Amir is bowling high 140s.  Telecasters immediately showing fastest ball as 144 k. ..... Ganguly says again after a couple of balls .... Amir bowling high 140s.

 

Expert 2 -- Manjrekar asking WI bowling coach during WI 2016 tour.  Why are Holder and Brathwaite, such big and tall fellows, not bowling 90 mph but bowling 80 mph ?  Coach says that pace is not dependent on big physique .... Manjrekar continues .... but surely you would expect such big guys to bowl 90 mph !

 

Expert 3 -- Roberts saying in a TV interview to Harsha Bhogle that he and the other top WI quicks used to bowl 160 k +.

 

Many people here have seen / listened to these incidents on TV.

 

How dependable are the words of experts when it comes to bowling speeds  ?

roberts even claimed somewhere that the fastest WI pacers touched 170 kph. I've seen such ridiculous claims for Frank Tyson as well (although not by him)

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

I don't think they are hyperbolic and as i said, i'd rather trust the word of experts than non-experts like yourself.

I have already said how the experts came to the conclusion of how fast people were in pre-speed gun days: by playing against them and comparing them to people in the speed-gun days.

A guy who's faced Waqar in 94 and Marshall in 87 can compare quite well who is/was faster.

 

And no, gear or no gear, a 130kph bowler doesnt feel like 150kph.

 

Sweeping statement

[putrevus]

No, that's not ridiculous at all, better training, better knowledge has certainly created more fast bowlers but there is a limit to evolution too. Like evolution from Jesse Owens to Usain boult it is steady and becomes flower overtime. 

That's possible because athletes are all around the world Americans were sprint kings, Jamaica became that sprint power during Bolt Era.

So There is no guarantee

[putrevus]

No, that's not ridiculous at all, better training, better knowledge has certainly created more fast bowlers but there is a limit to evolution too. Like evolution from Jesse Owens to Usain boult it is steady and becomes flower overtime. 

That's possible because athletes are all around the world Americans were sprint kings, Jamaica became that sprint power during Bolt Era.

So There is no guarantee Jamaica will ever have that guy again.

West Indies had that pace men in 1980s but there is no guarantee despite all the technology they will have that pace men again.

Cricket is played in very countries so it is not necessary that it will have same evolution as athletes.

If India remains cricket super power there is no guarantee that in next 50 years we will see another Thompson in India.

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

I am not aware of anyone who has played both Thommo at his peak and Lee / Akhtar at their peaks ..... so how would the experts know about their relative speeds any better than dedicated fans.

 

Same logic with Holding and Starc.

 

If it is a matter of watching from outside then experts don't have much special advantage over other dedicated fans regarding gauging speeds.

 

What the experts know better than fans regarding speeds is .... like Gavaskar knowing much better than fans whether Holding was quicker or Roberts.

because they can judge speed watching live both in nets and in grounds upclose.Fans don't have the access so watching on tv or in stadium you rarely will be able to judge their speeds.

[putrevus]

 All those who are quoting evolution and technology , there is something called natural ability. There is no Indian man who has run 100m under 10 sec and women under 11 sec. Cricket is popular in India but it is declining in popularity everywhere if that remains the case we might never  see another 160 K bowler. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

because they can judge speed watching live both in nets and in grounds upclose.Fans don't have the access so watching on tv or in stadium you rarely will be able to judge their speeds.

 

Speed-guns were regularly used in matches from 1999.  At that time, the frequent surprise that experts felt with certain results prove that they were not that good at gauging release speeds, despite watching bowlers upclose,  and other factors affected their judgement .... like the bounce a bowler gets,  his height and build,  his frequency of bowling bouncers, the hostility displayed by his bowling etc.

 

Experts were rather regularly surprised in 1999 that  (a) the bouncer was not necessarily the quickest delivery (b)  Damien Fleming was quicker than McGrath (c) Agarkar was as quick as many of the bigger sized fast bowlers  etc.

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

 All those who are quoting evolution and technology , there is something called natural ability. There is no Indian man who has run 100m under 10 sec and women under 11 sec. Cricket is popular in India but it is declining in popularity everywhere if that remains the case we might never  see another 160 K bowler. 

 

On the contrary, the T20 leagues all over the world have caused a lot more people to take up cricket seriously due to the quick money available. And it will increase.

 

We have seen so many new genuine fast bowlers in the CPL ( O.Thomas, Beaton, Smith etc. )  .... and it is a format where people try to bowl even quicker as there are only 4 overs to bowl.  Same case with Big Bash and Natwest Blast etc.

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

Sweeping statement

Less sweeping than calling experts who know far more about cricket than anyone here, as 'hyperbolic' . 

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

I am not aware of anyone who has played both Thommo at his peak and Lee / Akhtar at their peaks ..... so how would the experts know about their relative speeds any better than dedicated fans.

Irrelevant. 

There are people who've played Thommo at his peak and Waqar at his peak and Waqar had his speeds recorded in the early 90s (NZ series i believe). Hence one can extrapolate, very easily, whether Thommo was faster/slower than Waqar or not. 

 

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

Same logic with Holding and Starc.

 

If it is a matter of watching from outside then experts don't have much special advantage over other dedicated fans regarding gauging speeds.

 

What the experts know better than fans regarding speeds is .... like Gavaskar knowing much better than fans whether Holding was quicker or Roberts.

Indeed. And there are several who've played Holding at his peak and Waqar at his peak. Border being one, for eg. So if Border says Holding was as fast as Waqar, i have no reason to doubt his statement.