Top 10 cricketers of the last 40 years

[sandeep]

17 hours ago, the don said:

Imran khan 

Shane Warne

Wasim akram 

Viv Richards

Glenn Mcgrath

Adam Gilchrist 

Ricky Ponting

Curtly ambrose

Muttiah Muralitharan 

Sachin Tendulkar 

 

Lol @ having Kapil dev on the list . I understand the whole point is to pick a team that you deem best but objectively kapil should be nowhere near such a list . 

He isnt rated by any neutral really and without being biased i feel that he was very mediocre compared to many others , perhaps a case of having him in the top 100 but nothing more .

 

 

 

A Kapil/Imran discussion is almost always sure to snag this guy from lurking.

 

Can't blame him though.  All the greenbros have been brainwashed to fanatically worship the playboy from Pindi.  Om Imranaay Namaha!  Sorry, don't know the Arabic version 

[jusarrived]

Considering all three formats :

 

 

Gilly 

Virat 

Viv Richards

Tendulkar 

Imran 

Kapil

Steyn

Warne

Marshall 

McGrath

 

Next 10 

 

SMG

G smith

Wasim  

Dhoni 

Dravid 

Ponting 

Sanga 

Sehwag

Kumble 

Ambrose 

[Rightarmfast]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:00 PM, Trichromatic said:

Some random numbers at best. Kapil never averaged below 26 after first probably 150 wickets. There are very little chances that he could have ended close to that. Otherwise he was late 20 averaging bowler most of the time. Imran had Wasim firing in late 80 (debut in 85?) and waqar in 90s (debut Dec 89). Imran bowled on his own most of his career (1971-1991). He had Wasim for doing well for his 3-4 years of his active bowling career.

Taking ratio of averages don't give you relative strength of bowlers because it's much more difficult to reduce by 5 points when you avg 35 than from 25-20. A simple distribution of bolwers with averages will show lower density of bowlers around 20-25 Mark and higher density around 28-34 mark. Ishant is not half the bowler McGrath or Steyn or Donald, forget about being 65-70% which their averages ratio would be.

 

Random number of 90% in batting. What's the importance of SR in test cricket? If you face more balls, then you allow more partnerships to grow. 

 

Imran scored more runs than Kapil did in same number of innings. Can't check stats atm but Imran had some 3800 runs in 126 innings and Kapil scored 3300 or 3500 runs in same number of innings. Test cricket is 5 days game. Team would benefit more from a lower order batsman scoring 35 from 70 balls than 30 in 40 balls. 

May I request you to go do a fact check about - Imran's stats till 1979-80, and after ( Just around the time Imran admitted he was involved in tampering). Also, may I request you to go and check Imran's bowling stats in Pakistan, and away from Pakistan ( Away from Pakistan, where Imran did not have the luxury of Pakistani umpires). Kindly do a fact check, and then lets talk again!

[rtmohanlal]

17 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Other excelled with better bowling of Imran. Kapil wasn't that good to help other bowlers?

Imran lead Kapil by 28.87-22.81 = 6.06. The other 3 together in Imran's  group lead  the counter 3 from Kapil's group by 5.07*3 = 15.21.  Naturally my common sense  tells me to believe that Imran benefitted a lot more  'from the other 3 combined' than vice versa.

 

[Trichromatic]

33 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Imran lead Kapil by 28.87-22.81 = 6.06. The other 3 together in Imran's  group lead  the counter 3 from Kapil's group by 5.07*3 = 15.21.  Naturally my common sense  tells me to believe that Imran benefitted a lot more  'from the other 3 combined' than vice versa.

 

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

[rtmohanlal]

10 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

firstly  it is not 29 & 22 , it is 28.87 & 22.81

 

what ever it is , I am not telling that Kapil in the company of 3  33.26 bowlers thru out his career suddenly would have become a Dale Steyn  instead of him being in the company of 3 38.33 bowlers.I am only telling that his avg: would have positively benefitted quite a bit ,say at least by 0.8 , the other 1.2 because of getting  intense work  density reduced ,thus 28.86-0.8-1.2 =26.86. This because it is not one support bowler with 33.26 avg: but 3 of them.Hence the combined avg: difference of 15.21 is quite large   & thus can make some postive difference to Kapil's bowl avg:.

 

[Rightarmfast]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, Trichromatic said:

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

I was hoping for an answer from you.

[express bowling]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, Trichromatic said:

 Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

 

Shami is averaging 32 ... we will probably see this come down quite a bit if he stays fit during the next leg of away tours.

 

He has mostly played on flat tracks after his maturing as a test bowler in mid-2016.

 

The 2 seaming tracks he got, in Antigua and Kolkata, he picked up 4  and 6 wickets respectively.

Edited August 12, 2017 by express bowling

[Trichromatic]

On 11/08/2017 at 3:17 AM, Rightarmfast said:

May I request you to go do a fact check about - Imran's stats till 1979-80, and after ( Just around the time Imran admitted he was involved in tampering). Also, may I request you to go and check Imran's bowling stats in Pakistan, and away from Pakistan ( Away from Pakistan, where Imran did not have the luxury of Pakistani umpires). Kindly do a fact check, and then lets talk again!

Were the umpires unbiased in other parts of the world? What about West Indian umpires who just refuse to go against home team? Does that affect legacy of great West Indian pacers? This problem was all over the world and everyone faced it.

 

It's not like that Imran was average bowler outside Pakistan. 

 

He averges 25.76 outside Pakistan which is still better than many great pacers can manage away from home. Kapil averages 32.8 away from home. 

 

It's not similar to Miandad who averaged close 70 at home majority of career and then in 30 outside Asia. If it something similar then it's make sense to point out dip in away records. Otherwise avg of 25 is considered great in any decade.

[Trichromatic]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Shami is averaging 32 ... we will probably see this come down quite a bit if he stays fit during the next leg of away tours.

 

He has mostly played on flat tracks after his maturing as a test bowler in mid-2016.

 

The 2 seaming tracks he got, in Antigua and Kolkata, he picked up 4  and 6 wickets respectively.

Not saying that he does not has potential. He is already better than Zaheer at same point of career and has potential to become our of the best. He is one pacer who looks like can end with 27-28 avg if he maintains his fitness. By the time Zak learned all his skills, he had lost pace and already going downhill in terms of fitness. Shami has all those skills with pace and at peak of his career.

 

Point is Shami has talent to do so and he can do it without much difference in what others do. While Ishant won't be able to do it even if he plays with good bowlers. Same goes for Umesh, he isn't smart or consistent enough to average below 27-29 in career. At best with support he will be 30-32 avg bowler.

[Trichromatic]

Anyway here is my list:

 

1. SRT - Best batsman in cricket history and no other Indian cricketer had that much impact as player on whole Indian cricketing scene than him.

2. Shane Warne - Revived leg spin and now teams consider it important to have leggies on flat pitches.

3. Imran Khan - For his impact on Pakistan cricket and world cricket, also for making pace bowling attractive in SC.

4. Malcom Marshall - Best  pacer in history of test cricket

5. Dale Steyn - Way ahead of his peers. Only Bradman (in terms of avg) and Viv (in terms of SR) were ahead of their peers by such margin.

6. Gavaskar - Best opener

7. Gilchrist - Redefined role of wicket keeper.

8. Viv Richards

9. McGrath - would not want him in the list, but he was just too good. Whether be it tests, ODI or world cups. His performance was almost flawless.

10. Wasim Akram - Just for pure viewers' delight. There were better performers than him.

 

[rkt.india]

50 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Anyway here is my list:

 

1. SRT - Best batsman in cricket history and no other Indian cricketer had that much impact as player on whole Indian cricketing scene than him.

2. Shane Warne - Revived leg spin and now teams consider it important to have leggies on flat pitches.

3. Imran Khan - For his impact on Pakistan cricket and world cricket, also for making pace bowling attractive in SC.

4. Malcom Marshall - Best  pacer in history of test cricket

5. Dale Steyn - Way ahead of his peers. Only Bradman (in terms of avg) and Viv (in terms of SR) were ahead of their peers by such margin.

6. Gavaskar - Best opener

7. Gilchrist - Redefined role of wicket keeper.

8. Viv Richards

9. McGrath - would not want him in the list, but he was just too good. Whether be it tests, ODI or world cups. His performance was almost flawless.

10. Wasim Akram - Just for pure viewers' delight. There were better performers than him.

 

For pure viewers' delight, there was  none better than Allan Donald. He was sight to behold when bowling very much like Brett Lee and Michael Holding.

[rtmohanlal]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Anyway here is my list:

 

1. SRT - Best batsman in cricket history and no other Indian cricketer had that much impact as player on whole Indian cricketing scene than him.

2. Shane Warne - Revived leg spin and now teams consider it important to have leggies on flat pitches.

3. Imran Khan - For his impact on Pakistan cricket and world cricket, also for making pace bowling attractive in SC.

4. Malcom Marshall - Best  pacer in history of test cricket

5. Dale Steyn - Way ahead of his peers. Only Bradman (in terms of avg) and Viv (in terms of SR) were ahead of their peers by such margin.

6. Gavaskar - Best opener

7. Gilchrist - Redefined role of wicket keeper.

8. Viv Richards

9. McGrath - would not want him in the list, but he was just too good. Whether be it tests, ODI or world cups. His performance was almost flawless.

10. Wasim Akram - Just for pure viewers' delight. There were better performers than him.

 

leave aside all the other matters,it is surprising that you are completely neglecting the tampering allegations against him,let alone by  several of his contemporary cricket related people but even by his country men like Aamer Sohail & Rameez Raja. His  own career track is a testimony to this factor.After first 9 years of mediocrity , suddenly turning out to be  a super human bowler

churning out sub 15 avg:s series after series.I have never ever seen such a strange career record apart from that of Imran.

Edited August 12, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[Trichromatic]

32 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

leave aside all the other matters,it is surprising that you are completely neglecting the tampering allegations against him,let alone by  several of his contemporary cricket related people but even by his country men like Aamer Sohail & Rameez Raja. His  own career track is a testimony to this factor.After first 9 years of mediocrity , suddenly turning out to be  a super human bowler

churning out sub 15 avg:s series after series.I have never ever seen such a strange career record apart from that of Imran.

1. Tampering was done by other bowlers too and it has continued that way, be it Saffers or English bowlers. Now it is not possible to do it on that scale and earlier bowlers were not just skilled to take advantage.

 

2. Imran Khan and co made reverse swing popular. It wasn't an existing well known skill which wasn't just made easy by tampering.

 

3. They helped pace bowling to evolve in some way. Now bowlers have learnt this art and try to do it without tampering the ball. Without the reverse swing we would have missed some of the great bowling spells from Zak, Steyn, Shami and others in last 10 years.

 

4. Cricket in general has evolved in similar way. Round arm bowling was deemed illegal and there was lot of controversy around it.

 

Why should we ignore the this contribution by them to world cricket while making tampering allegations. Calling it simply cheating brings it to level of chucking where skills like doosra just couldn't be bowled without chucking - negative impact on the game. Whereas this has been part of a positive change in the fast bowling.

 

If history of game has to be explained later, then negative of tampering will simply outweigh the positive of introduction of reverse swing to the world which has given hopes to otherwise death bed of pacers in subcontinent.

 

Apart from that Imran can also be given some credit for neutral umpires which was also big change in game. 

[rtmohanlal]

9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

1. Tampering was done by other bowlers too and it has continued that way, be it Saffers or English bowlers. Now it is not possible to do it on that scale and earlier bowlers were not just skilled to take advantage.

 

2. Imran Khan and co made reverse swing popular. It wasn't an existing well known skill which wasn't just made easy by tampering.

 

3. They helped pace bowling to evolve in some way. Now bowlers have learnt this art and try to do it without tampering the ball. Without the reverse swing we would have missed some of the great bowling spells from Zak, Steyn, Shami and others in last 10 years.

 

4. Cricket in general has evolved in similar way. Round arm bowling was deemed illegal and there was lot of controversy around it.

 

Why should we ignore the this contribution by them to world cricket while making tampering allegations. Calling it simply cheating brings it to level of chucking where skills like doosra just couldn't be bowled without chucking - negative impact on the game. Whereas this has been part of a positive change in the fast bowling.

 

If history of game has to be explained later, then negative of tampering will simply outweigh the positive of introduction of reverse swing to the world which has given hopes to otherwise death bed of pacers in subcontinent.

 

Apart from that Imran can also be given some credit for neutral umpires which was also big change in game. 

Agreed that reverse swing  is possible with out tampering.Bowlers of post 2000 are able to reverse the ball too , but definitely not even closer to the  levels that was possible in the 90s & and even more in the 80s .Using external objects like bottle tops to alter the shape of the ball is illegal & unethical , which ever way we look at it.

   In the case of Imran , it is not one or 2 people who have accused him of this evil, infact several,even his own country men.

The final nail on the coffin was stuck by Rameez Raja ,who put forward an article in cricinfo as to 'how this tampering was some sort of patent material  of the Pakistanis just like sledging was that of Aussies & whining as that of the English.Once Ian Botham was asked as to why he did not include Imran in his list of 'top 50 sportsmen' Botham's reply was that " No, he wouldn't get close. Wasn't good enough. It's not a personal thing. He just wasn't good enough."On another instance he quoted 'now the best thing Imran can do is to keep his mouth shut because he has already done enough damage to this game'.

  And it is well known about the animosity between Botham & Imran that we would be  prone to believe this  opinion as a result of that animosity.But another fact is that Botham & Ian Chappel were the most bitter enemies so much so that Botham even  once  stated some thing in the lines of  'Chappel being non existant as a human'.But yet when Chappel was asked to pick his list of all rounders, he picked Botham in his  list some where at the top.That is the result of acceptance of 'genuine great ness' despite such bitter disliking. On the other hand Botham didn't pick Imran .Naturally,from all these testimonies  one is inclined to believe   in the ' levels' that Imran was indulged in these 'methods'.

  And tampering might has been done by other bowlers too.But that doesn't make it an ok matter.Cheating is unfair, which ever way we look at it.But Kapil was one of the bowlers who did not resort to this unfair tactic.My stance is to give extra credit to fair play & ethics  rather than to discredit it. Any way each to their own

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

Agreed that reverse swing  is possible with out tampering.Bowlers of post 2000 are able to reverse the ball too , but definitely not even closer to the  levels that was possible in the 90s & and even more in the 80s .Using external objects like bottle tops to alter the shape of the ball is illegal & unethical , which ever way we look at it.

   In the case of Imran , it is not one or 2 people who have accused him of this evil, infact several,even his own country men.

The final nail on the coffin was stuck by Rameez Raja ,who put forward an article in cricinfo as to 'how this tampering was some sort of patent material  of the Pakistanis just like sledging was that of Aussies & whining as that of the English.Once Ian Botham was asked as to why he did not include Imran in his list of 'top 50 sportsmen' Botham's reply was that " No, he wouldn't get close. Wasn't good enough. It's not a personal thing. He just wasn't good enough."On another instance he quoted 'now the best thing Imran can do is to keep his mouth shut because he has already done enough damage to this game'.

  And it is well known about the animosity between Botham & Imran that we would be  prone to believe this  opinion as a result of that animosity.But another fact is that Botham & Ian Chappel were the most bitter enemies so much so that Botham even  once  stated some thing in the lines of  'Chappel being non existant as a human'.But yet when Chappel was asked to pick his list of all rounders, he picked Botham in his  list some where at the top.That is the result of acceptance of 'genuine great ness' despite such bitter disliking. On the other hand Botham didn't pick Imran .Naturally,from all these testimonies  one is inclined to believe   in the ' levels' that Imran was indulged in these 'methods'.

  And tampering might has been done by other bowlers too.But that doesn't make it an ok matter.Cheating is unfair, which ever way we look at it.But Kapil was one of the bowlers who did not resort to this unfair tactic.My stance is to give extra credit to fair play & ethics  rather than to discredit it. Any way each to their own

Would we be seeing reverse seeing reverse swing if Imran hadn't made it popular? Was it a known skill to the world? Who should be credited for this?

 

Damage to the game? All we see is bowler equiped with totally new skillset to bowl on flat pitches. Eveytime reverse swing comes into picture, commies give credit to Pakistani bowlers. Ball tampering is not an ok matter, but like I said game has evolved that way many times.

 

Imran makes into top of almost every list in the world. Why does world ignore it then? 

[rkt.india]

13 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

1. Tampering was done by other bowlers too and it has continued that way, be it Saffers or English bowlers. Now it is not possible to do it on that scale and earlier bowlers were not just skilled to take advantage.

 

2. Imran Khan and co made reverse swing popular. It wasn't an existing well known skill which wasn't just made easy by tampering.

 

3. They helped pace bowling to evolve in some way. Now bowlers have learnt this art and try to do it without tampering the ball. Without the reverse swing we would have missed some of the great bowling spells from Zak, Steyn, Shami and others in last 10 years.

 

4. Cricket in general has evolved in similar way. Round arm bowling was deemed illegal and there was lot of controversy around it.

 

Why should we ignore the this contribution by them to world cricket while making tampering allegations. Calling it simply cheating brings it to level of chucking where skills like doosra just couldn't be bowled without chucking - negative impact on the game. Whereas this has been part of a positive change in the fast bowling.

 

If history of game has to be explained later, then negative of tampering will simply outweigh the positive of introduction of reverse swing to the world which has given hopes to otherwise death bed of pacers in subcontinent.

 

Apart from that Imran can also be given some credit for neutral umpires which was also big change in game. 

Imran didn't introduce reverse swing to the world. Neither he had a round arm action. And no Saffer and England didn't do that kind of ball tampering.

[rtmohanlal]

45 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Would we be seeing reverse seeing reverse swing if Imran hadn't made it popular? Was it a known skill to the world? Who should be credited for this?

 

Damage to the game? All we see is bowler equiped with totally new skillset to bowl on flat pitches. Eveytime reverse swing comes into picture, commies give credit to Pakistani bowlers. Ball tampering is not an ok matter, but like I said game has evolved that way many times.

 

Imran makes into top of almost every list in the world. Why does world ignore it then? 

I would have credited Imran if he achieved reverse swing with out these unfair tactics.That is plain cheating.No 2 ways about it.

Each and every player do not come with lists? Is it ? Botham or Lamb or Smith or Sandhu or Maninder has not come with lists till now.And what ever is the case with these lists, there is some thing with in our mind  that  strictly asks us to  accept things based on merits.Based on that I personally can't accept some one's  greatness  as such which was boosted by cheating .Any way as i earlier said each to their own.

[Trichromatic]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Imran didn't introduce reverse swing to the world. Neither he had a round arm action. And no Saffer and England didn't do that kind of ball tampering.

Imran made it popular. 

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

I would have credited Imran if he achieved reverse swing with out these unfair tactics.That is plain cheating.No 2 ways about it.

Each and every player do not come with lists? Is it ? Botham or Lamb or Smith or Sandhu or Maninder has not come with lists till now.And what ever is the case with these lists, there is some thing with in our mind  that  strictly asks us to  accept things based on merits.Based on that I personally can't accept some one's  greatness  as such which was boosted by cheating .Any way as i earlier said each to their own.

Then whom do you credit it for? No one?