How good is Shami?

[express bowling]

33 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not writing off Shami at all, all I am saying is it is premature to declare him world's best.Let him win a test overseas ala Ishant atleast before we coronate him.

 

I am not interesting in corronating his overall ability.... I just said that  (1)  analysis of his 2014 performances do not carry much meaning now as he is a more mature bowler now and is aided by more mature pacers now   (2) I just called him best pacer while bowling in Asia nowadays   (3)  He is a very good bowler now and there are sufficient reasons to believe that he will have a major impact if used in shorter spells of 5 or 4 overs, 3 times a day.  If he is unfit, Indian attack will become much weaker overseas.

 

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Yadav is playing since 2011 if he is not going to become world class by now I doubt he will ever become one.

 

Umesh is a much better bowler than he was in 2014 .... and that was one of my points.  He can be a good support pacer with some match-winning performances like Dharamsala.

 

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Shami I have hope but world class I will hold judgement till I see atleast one match winning spell from overseas.

 

Shami has not got many chances to display that yet after he matured as a bowler. There are only so many overs a pacer can bowl on  usual tracks in Asia.

 

He has picked up  4 + 6  wickets on the 2 seaming tracks he has bowled in recent times. And that displays his ability.

 

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The Kolkatta test you talked about in second innings Jadeja and Ashwin took 6 wickets and 8 wickets in total.WI matches you have told spinners bowled majority of overs there too. That will not happen when they tour away from subcontinent there will be only one spinner.You are under estimating the numbers of overs spinners have bowled in all those matches you have referred if those have to bowled by seamers that too economically is a big ask which none of fast bowlers have shown they are well equipped to do it.

 

 

If you have watched test matches in England, NZ and SA in recent times.... Moeen and Maharaj have both played significant parts in tests there and have bowled a lot of overs.  

 

Moeen has picked up 25 wickets in the last test series in England. Maharaj has 17 wickets in the same series.

 

Maharaj picked up 10 wickets from 2 tests in NZ.   He got 12 wickets from 3 tests in SA.

 

Pitches have changed all over the world and spinners will give support almost anywhere these days.

Edited August 16, 2017 by express bowling

[Lannister]

Until and unless, Shami can take lot of wickets in overseas conditions I will hold my judgement. We have seen too many times that our fast bowlers doing good in Asian conditions and looking below average when they step outside. Hope the situation changes under Kohli as far the fast bowlers are concerned. 

[Rightarmfast]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

I am not confusing anyone, Rabada has five 5fers and 2 10fers in 20 tests.Hazelwood has played on more roads than Shami in his 30 tests and has five 5fers.Hazelwood is quintessential hit the deck Aussie bowler who will never light up radar guns with his speed but is accrurate .

 

Players and us fans in India use word great very loosely when it comes to fast bowlers.Shami has never shown he can sustain that hositility/effectiveness for a complete test forget series. He has played 10 out his 25 tests in Aus/SA/NZ/England.He was dropped from side after third test in England.His average and effectiveness are best in Srilanka ,India then in West Indies.Those stats tell one thing clearly Shami has been excellent support bowler when load is being carried by spinners but loses his effectiveness when roles are reversed.Bhuvi outbowled him confortably in England.

 

Steyn is considered an ATG great becuase he flourished in this era I understand that but other great bowlers would be great in any era.Waqar might have trouble in reaching 350 wickets but when had pace he would still be very effective today .Akram would flourish in any era.Pace is pace in any era if you have pace and are accurate you will be very tough to deal with in any era. 

 

Guy like Mcgrath will become more menacing today becuase 90 percent of batsmen have no clue about their offstump.

Perhaps you do not know the stats of wasim akram when he played without waqar and vice versa. Your same point about spinners, maybe you are ignorant that mcgraths bowling partner was one called warne. And you have reservations about Shami flourishing with the help of spinners?

 

Fast bowlers of even as late as early 2000 will find it difficult playing now. akram and waqar and mcgrath and the likes, unless they change their bowling style, will not flourish!

Your comment about bowlers of the past being more menacing today is more than hilarious!

[the don]

On 15/08/2017 at 10:05 PM, express bowling said:

 

 

Good find  RAFbhai  !

 

At last, it looks like Indian fast bowlers are making a name for themselves in terms of both pace and ability. 

 

A group of genuine quicks is needed for that and we have it now.

 

This reputation is important to intimidate the opposition   ( after all no-one likes a 90 mph cricket ball hitting their body )   and motivate the next generation of fast bowlers.

 

 

 

Shami is easily the best test-match fast bowler in the world now while bowling in Asia. ( averages 21.9 with SR of 44 )  We played every team in the last 2 seasons and he outbowled every pacer in the world while bowling in the sub-continent.

 

p.s - I just don't agree with the part in the article about Amir.... he cannot bowl 145 k in test matches these days. ( only does it in LOIs )

Lol . Thats because Amir knows when to go full throttle . He chooses his moments to go the express route which is smart after a 5 year lay off with zero cricket . He still can reach speeds of upto 150 kph which shami cannot . The guy is hitting top form tearing up county cricket and batsmen rate him highly.

 

I reckon shami will end up a tier or two below both Amir and hasan ali. 

 

 

 

[the don]

On 16/08/2017 at 9:16 PM, Rightarmfast said:

Perhaps you do not know the stats of wasim akram when he played without waqar and vice versa. Your same point about spinners, maybe you are ignorant that mcgraths bowling partner was one called warne. And you have reservations about Shami flourishing with the help of spinners?

 

Fast bowlers of even as late as early 2000 will find it difficult playing now. akram and waqar and mcgrath and the likes, unless they change their bowling style, will not flourish!

Your comment about bowlers of the past being more menacing today is more than hilarious!

He is right . Shami is a good bowler by Indian standards but there are better bowlers around the world who batsmen rate highly and have won matches abroad . Laughable to mention him in the same breath as past ATG's .

He is at best a tier or two below the top bowlers of the current generation . Heck he didnt even make the Indian playing eleven which conceded 300 plus twice in the CT 17 .

[Mosher]

50 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

I suppose we can expect that kind of genius from Amir where he consistently underperforms in tests while 'choosing' to hit his peak in all important county matches.

 

Hilarious on so many levels.

 

[Rightarmfast]

4 hours ago, the don said:

Lol . Thats because Amir knows when to go full throttle . He chooses his moments to go the express route which is smart after a 5 year lay off with zero cricket . He still can reach speeds of upto 150 kph which shami cannot . The guy is hitting top form tearing up county cricket and batsmen rate him highly.

 

I reckon shami will end up a tier or two below both Amir and hasan ali. 

 

 

 

I agree with you there. Amir does know when to go full throttle, like which bookie to connect, how to sell off his country and things like those. No doubt!

Totally share your thoughts. About 150, well, when he starts chucking like other Pakistani bowlers, he will start bowling in 150's.

[Rightarmfast]

4 hours ago, the don said:

He is right . Shami is a good bowler by Indian standards but there are better bowlers around the world who batsmen rate highly and have won matches abroad . Laughable to mention him in the same breath as past ATG's .

He is at best a tier or two below the top bowlers of the current generation . Heck he didnt even make the Indian playing eleven which conceded 300 plus twice in the CT 17 .

Did I?

 

And about Shami being 2 tiers  behind other bowlers, well, whatever makes you sleep better at night :)

[the don]

33 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I agree with you there. Amir does know when to go full throttle, like which bookie to connect, how to sell off his country and things like those. No doubt!

Totally share your thoughts. About 150, well, when he starts chucking like other Pakistani bowlers, he will start bowling in 150's.

The thing is he actually has hit 150 kph even after his comeback while lacking match fitness . 

Wait and watch him leave others in the dust.

[the don]

2 hours ago, sarchasm said:

I suppose we can expect that kind of genius from Amir where he consistently underperforms in tests while 'choosing' to hit his peak in all important county matches.

 

Hilarious on so many levels.

Underperform ?? The dude is doing fine.

Watch him progress .

[Rightarmfast]

9 minutes ago, the don said:

The thing is he actually has hit 150 kph even after his comeback while lacking match fitness . 

Wait and watch him leave others in the dust.

Chucking or without chucking? :)

[express bowling]

6 hours ago, the don said:

Lol . Thats because Amir knows when to go full throttle . He chooses his moments to go the express route which is smart after a 5 year lay off with zero cricket . He still can reach speeds of upto 150 kph which shami cannot . The guy is hitting top form tearing up county cricket and batsmen rate him highly.

 

 

Laughter is the best medicine after all.   Maybe it will cure Amir's test form if he reads this.

 

 

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I reckon shami will end up a tier or two below both Amir 

 

 

Who has seen the future  !

 

However the present and past is a bit different in test matches and ODIs.

 

 

Amir, after return from fixing-ban break,  averages 34.3 in tests with a SR 74.  He also bowls 5 k to 10 k slower in tests compared to LOIs. 

 

In the same period, Shami averages 24.5  with a SR of  51.  Shami actually bowls quicker in test matches compared to LOIs.... touched 151 k last year and 147 k in the just completed test match.

 

Even overall figures are much better for Shami in tests  .... shown below.

 

AMIR

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	28	53	1011.1	227	2959	94	6/44	7/64	31.47	2.92	64.5	4	0	Profile
filtered	14	26	533.2	124	1475	43	6/44	7/64	34.30	2.76	74.4	1	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/290948.html?class=1;spanmax1=18+Aug+2017;spanmin1=18+Aug+2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling;view=match

 

 

SHAMI

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	25	48	778.3	127	2655	86	5/47	9/118	30.87	3.41	54.3	2	0	Profile
filtered	13	25	332.0	65	956	39	4/66	6/116	24.51	2.87	51.0	0	0

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/481896.html?class=1;spanmin1=01+Jul+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

Shami averages 24.7 in ODIs compared to 27.4 for Amir.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by express bowling

[the don]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Laughter is the best medicine after all.   Maybe it will cure Amir's test form if he reads this.

 

 

 

Amir already has performed in two world tournament finals . I couldnt care about his odi average . Mind you he will end up as a certified ODI great .

 

Amir , shami and junaid khan have similar test match statsistics . Junaid has played on the flattest pitches out of the three and has two series winning performances in southafrica ( India has never won there ) and India yet he wont get the hype from pakistani fans like shami does in India. Amir is a diffetent level of skill in the eyes of the pundits and batsmen who have faced him .

 . 

Watch how amir leaves the others in the dust as he gathers momentum .

What were you expecting from a guy who was out for 5 years . Mind you he wasnt the finished article pre ban either . Seen enough in the westindies and recently to be convinced that he is well on his way to ths top . 

Personal opinion. We can always revisit the thread.

[the don]

^Also about the pace . Amir has hit 150 kph plus in all three formats of the  international game .

Has any Indian bowler done that in their entire cricketing history ?? Thats what i meant when i said he knows when to turn it on .

The scary thing is he wasnt even at peak levels for international cricket after the 5 year ban.

[vayuu1]

^Also about the pace . Amir has hit 150 kph plus in all three formats of the  international game .
Has any Indian bowler done that in their entire cricketing history ?? Thats what i meant when i said he knows when to turn it on .
The scary thing is he wasnt even at peak levels for international cricket after the 5 year ban.

Umesh, AARON

Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk

[vayuu1]

^Also about the pace . Amir has hit 150 kph plus in all three formats of the  international game .
Has any Indian bowler done that in their entire cricketing history ?? Thats what i meant when i said he knows when to turn it on .
The scary thing is he wasnt even at peak levels for international cricket after the 5 year ban.

The scary thing is instead of making example out of him, u brought him back after the fixing saga, means corruption is the order of the house in Pakistan

Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, the don said:

 

Amir , shami  have similar test match statsistics .

No., they don't.... I have given the stats above, you just have to read them, but alas  !

 

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Junaid has played on the flattest pitches out of the three and has two series winning performances in southafrica ( India has never won there ) and India yet he wont get the hype from pakistani fans like shami does in India.

You do realize that Junaid has not played a single test in the last 2 years, do you  ?  When he was playing, he was being hailed as the new Akram by Pakistani fans.

 

Shami is being talked about by fans and experts alike because he is showcasing a great combination of pace/ bounce / accuracy / seam / swing / reverse swing ..... and averaging 24.5 in test matches after his return from surgery.

 

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Amir is a diffetent level of skill in the eyes of the pundits and batsmen who have faced him .

Watch how amir leaves the others in the dust as he gathers momentum .

What were you expecting from a guy who was out for 5 years . Mind you he wasnt the finished article pre ban either . Seen enough in the westindies and recently to be convinced that he is well on his way to ths top . 

Personal opinion. We can always revisit the thread.

 

We will talk when he performs consistently in test matches for over a year.   Last I read, amir was thinking about quitting test matches to focus on LOIs.

Edited August 18, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, the don said:

^Also about the pace . Amir has hit 150 kph plus in all three formats of the  international game .

Has any Indian bowler done that in their entire cricketing history ?? Thats what i meant when i said he knows when to turn it on .

The scary thing is he wasnt even at peak levels for international cricket after the 5 year ban.

 

Umesh and Aaron have done it.

 

Srinath did it in tests and ODIs and never played T20s.

 

Shami and Ishant have done it in tests, which is the most difficult format to bowl quick in.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Umesh and Aaron have done it.

 

Srinath did it in tests and ODIs and never played T20s.

 

Shami and Ishant have done it in tests, which is the most difficult format to bowl quick in.

+ Sreesanth.. Although I dont rate him. Nehra, RP SIngh have bowled close to 150 ( 149's) in both test and ODI. The new breed of bowlers are bowling around 145+ , so I don't know what this Don is jumping around.

 

Don should be careful, being a pakistani agar 11 mulko ki police iska peechha karne lagegi jhooth bolne ke liye, to ye bachega nahi! :P

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, the don said:

Junaid has played on the flattest pitches out of the three and has two series winning performances in southafrica ( India has never won there ) and India yet he wont get the hype from pakistani fans like shami does in India.

 

Huh !

 

Just checked his stats

 

Junaid has played 1 test in South Africa, averages 48 and has taken 2 wickets in that match  . Pakistan lost that test by 211 runs.

 

You lost the 3 test series  0-3  .     Series winning indeed  !