Dhoni's standing in the pantheon of ODI legends/greats?

[Shunya]

WTF is wrong with you @Laaloo what is this Gujjus, Dhoklas n southies n all BS... Dhoni nafrat has taken a huge toll on you it seems...get over it man

 

Ek number no ghelsappo che haara, faltu ma gujjuo nu naam badnaam kare che

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 hours ago, Khota said:

He did nothing when it mattered in CT. Utter failure.

SL series does not count. My grandmother could have scored a century in that one. Come back with better numbers.

Nobody did nothing, or else we wud have been holding the cup

Why going after one person 

 

 

[Rasgulla]

5 hours ago, Khota said:

Of all the posters on this thread you come across as the most mature one. I am being very candid. Vilander is pretty good too most of the times. I have shown weakness ocassionally and that was my fault. Some are downright nasty but you are very fair. You are about data and discussion not personal stuff. Rest of us including me are guilty of stupidity and immaturity.

sir khote strikes 

[Khota]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Wicketkeeper stats are bowler dependent. If you keep for Ashwin, you will have more stumpings. If you keep for McGrath, you will have way more catches. Wicketkeeping skills is not about stats, its about actual performance. Just like how fielding isn't about catches, otherwise all the greatest fielders would automatically be 1st slip guys.

I have an objection to Pant and Kishan: they are too young. their bodies are not ready to crouch for a whole day and then bat as a proper batsman- for 10 months a year, every year. Dekock was brought in gradually. Played only ODIs for first 2 years, that too after he was 21. Gillchrist didn't make his debut till 26-27. these kids are 18 and 19, they need anohter 2-3 years of domestic cricket to season their bodies and minds. Otherwise, you are 99% certain, to end up with a Parthiv Patel, not Adam Gillchrist.

 

Other backups in the system- yes, they need to play 1 out of 10 matches and Dhoni can play 9 out of 10 matches, so that the reserve keeper has match-practice. But beyond that, as long as Dhoni is fit and performing, he plays for however long he wants to. 

This is where you and I have fundamental disagreements and we will never agree. Any competitive sport the coaches spend lot of time developing bench because as good coaches say you never win because of your starters you win becaus of your bench.

In short reserves should get half the meaningless games so that you can see for yourself that they are better.

As far as wicket keeper stats are concerned it averages out in IPl and that is what is great. Dhoni is not special.

[Khota]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Nobody did nothing, or else we wud have been holding the cup

Why going after one person 

 

 

You are missing the point. I am not going after one person. I am like my hero Mahatma Gandhi speaking up for other 5.

[Khota]

7 hours ago, SK_IH said:

looking at the poll results,its clear apart from few rabid haters,Dhoni is a well acknowledged ODI ATG 

There is no hate in my heart. It is love for Karthick, Pant and Patel etc. that should show.

[Khota]

3 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

sir khote strikes 

you are special.

[Rasgulla]

1 hour ago, Khota said:

you are special.

Ik sir ik but you are funnyand your logic is out of this world. 

[mishra]

10 hours ago, Khota said:

Of all the posters on this thread you come across as the most mature one. I am being very candid. Vilander is pretty good too most of the times. I have shown weakness ocassionally and that was my fault. Some are downright nasty but you are very fair. You are about data and discussion not personal stuff. Rest of us including me are guilty of stupidity and immaturity.

ye kya hai

[Khota]

3 hours ago, mishra said:

ye kya hai

yeh confession hai.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, Khota said:

This is where you and I have fundamental disagreements and we will never agree. Any competitive sport the coaches spend lot of time developing bench because as good coaches say you never win because of your starters you win becaus of your bench.

nobody denied this. But 'developing bench' does not mean 'throw in the highly talented but extremely inexperienced teenager off the deep end at the highest level'.

 

6 hours ago, Khota said:

In short reserves should get half the meaningless games so that you can see for yourself that they are better.

As far as wicket keeper stats are concerned it averages out in IPl and that is what is great. Dhoni is not special.

Ok. Half the meaningless games it is. A meaningless game is a game when series is already won. So 4th/5th ODI with series already won, sure. 

And no, wicketkeeper stats never average out. because having a good/bad bowling lineup makes a huge difference and a wicketkeeper can be exellent and not get a single catch or a wicketkeeper can be horrible, drop 4 catches and still take 6 more. 

[Khota]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

nobody denied this. But 'developing bench' does not mean 'throw in the highly talented but extremely inexperienced teenager off the deep end at the highest level'.

 

Ok. Half the meaningless games it is. A meaningless game is a game when series is already won. So 4th/5th ODI with series already won, sure. 

And no, wicketkeeper stats never average out. because having a good/bad bowling lineup makes a huge difference and a wicketkeeper can be exellent and not get a single catch or a wicketkeeper can be horrible, drop 4 catches and still take 6 more. 

Like I said there are 4 others and no one is getting a chance. 

The series does not have to won and dont think dhoni alone is responsible for win. There are 10 others.This will improve dhoni too. No one is missing him in tests.

They do average out over a period of time on the same grounds and conditions. Nothing points to dhoni being exceptional.

It is not about hate but about fairness.

 

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, Khota said:

Like I said there are 4 others and no one is getting a chance. 

So ? Indian team doesnt exist to give everyone a chance. those 4 others are worse keepers than Dhoni, by far.

8 minutes ago, Khota said:

The series does not have to won and dont think dhoni alone is responsible for win. There are 10 others.This will improve dhoni too. No one is missing him in tests.

the series has to be won before you set aside the best possible XI for the team and play the reserve folks. We've already established that Dhoni is the best keeper amongst the 4-5 options and his 50 over record this year is by far, superior to theirs. 

8 minutes ago, Khota said:

They do average out over a period of time on the same grounds and conditions. Nothing points to dhoni being exceptional.

It is not about hate but about fairness.

 

No they don't average out. If you have McGrath-Gillespie as your bowlers you will end up with way, way more catches than if your bowlers are Zaheer and Nehra.

If your comment was right, we'd judge who is a better fielder by simply comparing catches/innings ratio. So by that benchmark, Dhawan is a better fielder than Kohli. Agreed or not ?

If you were being fair, you would not say these 4 guys are anywhere close to Dhoni as a keeper. their glove work is weaker. their glove work is less reliable and their collection of throws are way laggy compared to Dhoni. I don't see you saying any of this, so you are just a pure hater, not objective.

 

[Khota]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

So ? Indian team doesnt exist to give everyone a chance. those 4 others are worse keepers than Dhoni, by far.

How did you come to this conclusion? This shows your bias.

 

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

the series has to be won before you set aside the best possible XI for the team and play the reserve folks. We've already established that Dhoni is the best keeper amongst the 4-5 options and his 50 over record this year is by far, superior to theirs. 

Not necessarily. SL was a prime example where India missed a trick. With the chimp shastri dont expect any innovation in the field of coaching.

 

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

o they don't average out. If you have McGrath-Gillespie as your bowlers you will end up with way, way more catches than if your bowlers are Zaheer and Nehra.

If your comment was right, we'd judge who is a better fielder by simply comparing catches/innings ratio. So by that benchmark, Dhawan is a better fielder than Kohli. Agreed or not ?

So let me understand what you are saying. If you look at the following table everycatch that dhoni has taken is harder than other six and every stumping is more difficult than other. You are very precious.

Most dismissals

Player	Mat	Inns	Dis	Ct	St	Max Dis Inns	Dis/Inn
RV Uthappa	14	14	15	9	6	3 (0ct 3st)	1.071
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
MS Dhoni	16	16	13	10	3	3 (3ct 0st)	0.812
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
WP Saha	14	14	12	10	2	4 (2ct 2st)	0.857
(Kings XI Punjab)
RR Pant	14	14	11	8	3	3 (3ct 0st)	0.785
(Delhi Daredevils)
KM Jadhav	13	10	8	5	3	2 (2ct 0st)	0.800
(Royal Challengers Bangalore)
KD Karthik	14	14	8	8	0	2 (2ct 0st)	0.571
(Gujarat Lions)
PA Patel	16	16	8	6	2	1 (1ct 0st)	0.500
(Mumbai Indians)
NV Ojha	14	14	6	6	0	1 (1ct 0st)	0.428
(Sunrisers Hyderabad)
SP Jackson	4	2	2	2	0	2 (2ct 0st)	1.000
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
Vishnu Vinod	3	3	2	0	2	2 (0ct 2st)	0.666
(Royal Challengers Bangalore)
AT Rayudu	5	1	1	1	0	1 (1ct 0st)	1.000
(Mumbai Indians)

[Muloghonto]

21 minutes ago, Khota said:

How did you come to this conclusion? This shows your bias.

Because their glove hand is slower, their catching is less reliable and their gathering is slower than Dhoni's. 

they also have scored far less runs in 50 over cricket in 2017 than Dhoni. 

21 minutes ago, Khota said:

 

Not necessarily. SL was a prime example where India missed a trick. With the chimp shastri dont expect any innovation in the field of coaching.

Nobody benches their best player to test new players when a series is alive. 

 

21 minutes ago, Khota said:

So let me understand what you are saying. If you look at the following table everycatch that dhoni has taken is harder than other six and every stumping is more difficult than other. You are very precious.

Nope. Not at all. I said he is a better catcher- i.e., drops less chances than the others, is a faster stumper, is a way cleaner gatherer of the ball from the outfield and he is the best in the world in quickness of gathering ball and throwing it at the stumps. He is the only one who does the 'Dhoni flick'. 

 

21 minutes ago, Khota said:

Most dismissals

Player	Mat	Inns	Dis	Ct	St	Max Dis Inns	Dis/Inn
RV Uthappa	14	14	15	9	6	3 (0ct 3st)	1.071
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
MS Dhoni	16	16	13	10	3	3 (3ct 0st)	0.812
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
WP Saha	14	14	12	10	2	4 (2ct 2st)	0.857
(Kings XI Punjab)
RR Pant	14	14	11	8	3	3 (3ct 0st)	0.785
(Delhi Daredevils)
KM Jadhav	13	10	8	5	3	2 (2ct 0st)	0.800
(Royal Challengers Bangalore)
KD Karthik	14	14	8	8	0	2 (2ct 0st)	0.571
(Gujarat Lions)
PA Patel	16	16	8	6	2	1 (1ct 0st)	0.500
(Mumbai Indians)
NV Ojha	14	14	6	6	0	1 (1ct 0st)	0.428
(Sunrisers Hyderabad)
SP Jackson	4	2	2	2	0	2 (2ct 0st)	1.000
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
Vishnu Vinod	3	3	2	0	2	2 (0ct 2st)	0.666
(Royal Challengers Bangalore)
AT Rayudu	5	1	1	1	0	1 (1ct 0st)	1.000
(Mumbai Indians)

As i said and you keep running away from this fact, comparing wicketkeeping stats is like comparing fielding stats. If you want to use catching stats for wicketkeepers are you prepared to admit then that a fielder with more catches/match is a better fielder, period ?

 

[Khota]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Because their glove hand is slower, their catching is less reliable and their gathering is slower than Dhoni's. 

they also have scored far less runs in 50 over cricket in 2017 than Dhoni. 

How come theyhave the same stumpings and same number of catches?

 

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Nobody benches their best player to test new players when a series is aliv

There was not anything left in the series. Even when it was over they did not give a chance to anyone else.

 

16 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Nope. Not at all. I said he is a better catcher- i.e., drops less chances than the others, is a faster stumper, is a way cleaner gatherer of the ball from the outfield and he is the best in the world in quickness of gathering ball and throwing it at the stumps. He is the only one who does the 'Dhoni flick'. 

If he is all that how come he does not have any extra catch. I dont give a frick about dhoni frick.

 

17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

As i said and you keep running away from this fact, comparing wicketkeeping stats is like comparing fielding stats. If you want to use catching stats for wicketkeepers are you prepared to admit then that a fielder with more catches/match is a better fielder, period ?

 

We are comparing wkt keepers. They all stand behind the wickets.

dhoni is done.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

How come theyhave the same stumpings and same number of catches?

How many stumpings and catches you have, is dependent on how many chances your bowlers generate via edges or by dragging batsmen out of the crease. how are better catchers etc. reflected by stats ?

 

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

There was not anything left in the series. Even when it was over they did not give a chance to anyone else.

And i said they should've given chance to the backup keeper for 5th ODI.

 

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

If he is all that how come he does not have any extra catch. I dont give a frick about dhoni frick.

Because his bowling attack did not generate more chances. 

 

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

We are comparing wkt keepers. They all stand behind the wickets.

dhoni is done.

So what ? If you can compare wicketkeepers based on # of catches and stumping, why can't you compare fielders the same way too ?

Do you accept the fact that the same keeper keeping for McGrath-Warne will have more catches/stumping than keeping for Olonga and Price ? yes/no please.

 

PS: Dhoni is not done. His stats show he isn't done, his coach has garanteed his spot for another 2 years. Stop repeating it like its your mantra. 

[Khota]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

How many stumpings and catches you have, is dependent on how many chances your bowlers generate via edges or by dragging batsmen out of the crease. how are better catchers etc. reflected by stats ?

 

And i said they should've given chance to the backup keeper for 5th ODI.

 

Because his bowling attack did not generate more chances. 

 

So what ? If you can compare wicketkeepers based on # of catches and stumping, why can't you compare fielders the same way too ?

Do you accept the fact that the same keeper keeping for McGrath-Warne will have more catches/stumping than keeping for Olonga and Price ? yes/no please.

 

PS: Dhoni is not done. His stats show he isn't done, his coach has garanteed his spot for another 2 years. Stop repeating it like its your mantra. 

Wkt keepers all stand behind the wkts. Fielders are at difefrent part of field. Wkt kpr get same chances fielders not so much. dhoni - nothing special.I am tired and your man is done.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Khota said:

Wkt keepers all stand behind the wkts. Fielders are at difefrent part of field. Wkt kpr get same chances fielders not so much. dhoni - nothing special.I am tired and your man is done.

You did not answer my question:

 

Do you accept the fact that the same keeper keeping for McGrath-Warne will have more catches/stumping than keeping for Olonga and Price ? yes/no please.

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Khota]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You did not answer my question:

 

Do you accept the fact that the same keeper keeping for McGrath-Warne will have more catches/stumping than keeping for Olonga and Price ? yes/no please.

 

Your question is deflection and nothing else. In IPL there is parity if you check.