Unrelenting bowling line-up offers India fresh edge

[express bowling]

49 minutes ago, putrevus said:

^^ Why are we Indians obsessed with speed gun readings, it does not matter if srinath was clocked @ 165k . Srinath was not as good as either Waqar or Akram .

It took long time for Srinath to find his length.He would have been deadly if he had mastered reverse swing with his inswing action.

Speed matters but without any skill or movement  that speed is useless. Both Yadav and Aaron have speed  other than few matches here and there from Yadav both have done nothing major.Aaron has been total bust if he was any good he would be taking bucket loads of wickets in domestic cricket.Yadav I have hope let us wait and see how he pans out in next couple of years. Both of them made debut  in 2011 which is long time ago.

 If you are averaging over 138 -140 k with ability to bump up your speed when needed you would be just fine if you have other skills which are more important than speed.

The difference between Pakistani fast bowlers and Indian fast bowlers IMHO is they don't give up as easily as Indian fast bowlers when things are not going well.

 

This is  a classic case of changing track when faced with facts.  My post was just about speed because I was replying to a reference of Srinath's speed by another poster and you know it.   And then you said that Srinath was nowhere near Wasim or Waqar in terms of speed.  So, I replied to the speed part with data.

 

Have I or anyone else here said that only pace is important  ?   Has any one disputed the need to combine skills with pace  ?  What are you even fighting about  ?

 

Srinath's pace assumed extra importance for Indians because it gave future Indian pacers  the belief for the first time after our independence that Indians too can bowl fast.  This point is missed by many.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by express bowling

[sandeep]

On 9/24/2017 at 12:16 PM, Vilander said:

Biggest joke its vitriol like this that sets pak fans apart delusional jihad variety. Dude admir is a trundler in tests. Shami Yadav average 140 in completed tests and peak 145 -148, thats comfortably faster than anything pak bowlers bowl in tests.

No amount of reality checks will wake up the self-delusional from their dream.   

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

This is  a classic case of changing track when faced with facts.  My post was just about speed because I was replying to a reference of Srinath's speed by another poster and you know it.   And then you said that Srinath was nowhere near Wasim or Waqar in terms of speed.  So, I replied to the speed part with data.

 

Have I or anyone else here said that only pace is important  ?   Has any one disputed the need to combine skills with pace  ?  What are you even fighting about  ?

 

Srinath's pace assumed extra importance for Indians because it gave future Indian pacers  the belief for the first time after our independence that Indians too can bowl fast.  This point is missed by many.

 

 

 

Even speed wise Srinath never had the speed of either Waqar or Akram on a consistent basis. See Srinath might have had some fast spells he even broke  Dereck Pringle's nose way back in 1992. But he never was as lethal as Waqar or Wasim. So your point of quoting speed gun readings and quotes about his speed are irrelevant in my view.

 

He never had lethal speed but Younis had that speed early in his career before his back injury. The speed in case of Younis got accentuated by the lengths and movement he generated.Srinath had opposite effect on batsmen due to length which was lot shorter than Younis. Younis was deadly before he lost his speed , I don't want to admit it but those two were so lethal.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by putrevus

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Read properly before starting to jump.   I said   " As far as pace is concerned, Srinath did not get his due ".  His quality as a bowler has no relevance to what I said.

 

 

Again, this point is not relevant as I was discussing pace.... and not the quality of bowling.

 

Moreover, if a bowler is really good and has a low average, he will be recognized in terms of quality irrespective of his country.... like we are seeing with Bumrah's LOI bowling.

 

 

Wasim and Waqar were more skilled than Srinath ..... that is very true.

 

Srinath being no-where near the pace of Wasim and Waqar .... this statement has no basis and any actual data regarding speeds prove otherwise.

 

 

1 )  Srinath touched 156 k in 1996 in SA.  He was quicker than Donald in 1996. Reference below ....

 

 " Between December '96 and February '97 Srinath's speeds were timed in excess of 150kph and were comparable to those of both Allan Donald and South Africa's 'new' pace sensation Lance Klusener. Whilst Klusener's fastest ball came in at 154kph and he proved at the time to be faster than Donald, it has been brought to my attention on numerous occasions that Srinath pipped them both with one particular delivery measured at 156kph. "

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/111878.html

 

 

2 )  Srinath touched 157 k in 1997, in Zimbabwe. Reference below.

 

The Zimbabwe captain Alistair Campbell revealed that Srinath was recorded at 157 km/hr on 27 January 1997 in the game at Paarl between India and Zimbabwe. He said about this game: "We then moved on to our second game against India, at Boland Bank Park. In all 236 was quite a decent score, as it wasn't the easiest of pitches to bat on, and Srinath I think bowled the quickest that any of our guys had ever seen. He bowled a really quick spell early on, even quicker than Allan Donald; he was timed at 157 km/h, a good 10 km/h faster than Donald was bowling throughout the tournament. Grant Flower was hit on the thigh pad, and when he came off he said he thought he had broken his leg"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javagal_Srinath

 

 

3 )   " Old " Srinath, after his shoulder operation, was the 2nd fastest bowler in WC 1999 .... Old Srinath was quicker than old Wasim  and old Donald.. Reference below.....

 

" At the tournament's first match Srinath and McGrath went head to head once more. This time it was evident for all the world to see that Javagal Srinath was no medium pacer, but was a genuine speedster clocking up 149.6kph.  Srinath proved to be the second fastest bowler of the tournament next to Shoaib (154.5kph) "

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/111878.html

 

 

4)  Any reference of Wasim reaching these kind of speeds  ?   I could not find any .

 

 

5)  Waqar was quick in 1989-92 range .... but no reference of him going way over 157 k. No reference of old Waqar touching 150 k either like old Srinath did.

 

So, it is strongly incorrect to say " Srinath might have been underrated but he definitely was nowhere near Waqar or Akram either in skill or pace "  like you did.

 

 

 

 

Complete and utter ownage right there. Well done EB

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

Even speed wise Srinath never had the speed of either Waqar or Akram on a consistent basis. See Srinath might have had some fast spells he even broke  Dereck Pringle's nose way back in 1992. But he never was as lethal as Waqar or Wasim. So your point of quoting speed gun readings and quotes about his speed are irrelevant in my view.

 

He never had lethal speed but Younis had that speed early in his career before his back injury. The speed in case of Younis got accentuated by the lengths and movement he generated.Srinath had opposite effect on batsmen due to length which was lot shorter than Younis. Younis was deadly before he lost his speed , I don't want to admit it but those two were so lethal.

 

 

 

Not lethal lol pak term. They are bowlers not sharp shooters.  Besides Srinath was faster than Ws but not better skilled at all times of his career for sure.

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

Even speed wise Srinath never had the speed of either Waqar or Akram on a consistent basis. See Srinath might have had some fast spells he even broke  Dereck Pringle's nose way back in 1992. But he never was as lethal as Waqar or Wasim. So your point of quoting speed gun readings and quotes about his speed are irrelevant in my view.

 

He never had lethal speed but Younis had that speed early in his career before his back injury. The speed in case of Younis got accentuated by the lengths and movement he generated.Srinath had opposite effect on batsmen due to length which was lot shorter than Younis. Younis was deadly before he lost his speed , I don't want to admit it but those two were so lethal.

 

 

 

tell you why were they lethal? bottle caps

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

 

Even speed wise Srinath never had the speed of either Waqar or Akram on a consistent basis. See Srinath might have had some fast spells he even broke  Dereck Pringle's nose way back in 1992. But he never was as lethal as Waqar or Wasim. So your point of quoting speed gun readings and quotes about his speed are irrelevant in my view.

 

He never had lethal speed but Younis had that speed early in his career before his back injury. The speed in case of Younis got accentuated by the lengths and movement he generated.Srinath had opposite effect on batsmen due to length which was lot shorter than Younis. Younis was deadly before he lost his speed , I don't want to admit it but those two were so lethal.

 

 

 

Srinath was consistently quick and threatening .... injured many batsmen which included  career-ending injuries to Meryck Pringle and Lanka Silva, both of whom were hit on their face despite wearing visors 

 

But  " lethal "  bowling is not dependent on bowling speeds alone. It depends on combining pace, bounce, accuracy, movement, ability to set-up batsmen, match awareness etc.

 

Shami and Ishant bowl similar speeds, but Shami is  way more " lethal " because he combines pace / bounce with much better skills.

 

Srinath , although not as skilled as Wasim, was still quite good in terms of skills.  He never sprayed the ball around.  He has the 2nd best average among retired test pacers from India.  Srinath was very dangerous in the sub-continent and averaged 26 in tests here.   

 

Here is " old " Srinath,  after losing pace, taking 13 wickets in a test vs Pakistan in India  looking very " lethal " 

 

 

 

 

 

His only problem was bowling in places like Australia, WI etc.

Edited September 26, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

/\ Even in this match, Srinath was bowling at a very high pace, as is evident. I remember Rameez Raja commenting ' It's not easy to play against the pace of Srinath'. I remember the match vividly. When Shahid Afridi got hit on the hand, he acted as if he hadnt nicked it. But the ball was so quick, he just couldnt resist and gave it away by throwing his gloves. it might not be in this highlight.

 

Btw, @putrevus pretty hilarious at how you change stance once presented with facts. Second, could you tell me how many batsmen consider Shaun Tait to be lethal?

[putrevus]

10 hours ago, Vilander said:

Not lethal lol pak term. They are bowlers not sharp shooters.  Besides Srinath was faster than Ws but not better skilled at all times of his career for sure.

What good it did to Srinath if he was faster??

[putrevus]

10 hours ago, rkt.india said:

tell you why were they lethal? bottle caps

You think it was just bottle caps, I always thought it was the case but after reading all the  past players had to say about them has changed my view. I do think they had more wicket taking abilities.Whole world would not be giving them credit for nothing.

 

If it was just due to cheating then they wouldn't have survived so long in international cricket.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

/\ Even in this match, Srinath was bowling at a very high pace, as is evident. I remember Rameez Raja commenting ' It's not easy to play against the pace of Srinath'. I remember the match vividly. When Shahid Afridi got hit on the hand, he acted as if he hadnt nicked it. But the ball was so quick, he just couldnt resist and gave it away by throwing his gloves. it might not be in this highlight.

 

Btw, @putrevus pretty hilarious at how you change stance once presented with facts. Second, could you tell me how many batsmen consider Shaun Tait to be lethal?

I am not changing stance at all , Shaun Tait is perfect example of just pace and nothing much else. Perth 2008 Laxman and RP singh were batting in second innings and if you remember Laxman's interview after the match.He was shielding RP from Johnson but not Tail as RP was have little trouble in facing Tait.

 

I don't care what pace Srinath bowled in a spell or spell .He was not as good as or as fast as Ws on consistent basis.

[Rightarmfast]

52 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not changing stance at all , Shaun Tait is perfect example of just pace and nothing much else. Perth 2008 Laxman and RP singh were batting in second innings and if you remember Laxman's interview after the match.He was shielding RP from Johnson but not Tail as RP was have little trouble in facing Tait.

 

I don't care what pace Srinath bowled in a spell or spell .He was not as good as or as fast as Ws on consistent basis.

How and why? Please elaborate...

 

You just contradicted yourself. We were talking about pace, and then you make a comment and when presented with facts, you resort to quality of bowling. And then again go back to pace. So please prove your point.

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

How and why? Please elaborate...

 

You just contradicted yourself. We were talking about pace, and then you make a comment and when presented with facts, you resort to quality of bowling. And then again go back to pace. So please prove your point.

Pace and quality are interlinked one without the other is almost useless. Do you agree??

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Pace and quality are interlinked one without the other is almost useless. Do you agree??

No.  They are not. You don't very high pace to be successful. High pace is just an added advantage.  

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Pace and quality are interlinked one without the other is almost useless. Do you agree??

 

It is possible to have pace without quality .... like Md. Sami of Pakistan

 

It is also possible to have quality without pace .... like Philander of SA.

 

But how does Srinath become slower if Wasim was a better bowler .... please explain as you said this  ",He was not as good as or as fast as Ws on consistent basis." 

[putrevus]

Just now, rkt.india said:

No.  They are not. You don't very high pace to be successful. High pace is just an added advantage.  

They are , you don't have to have 160 kmph but you cannot be 115 trundler too. 135-140 is minimum range needed to be good fast bowler and for great bowler you should be consistently operating in these speeds with ability to crank up when needed.

 

My point about Srinath was he was never in Akthar speed category and he certainly did not have the skills of two Ws. He had good enough speed but did not have other tools to become a great fast bowler that's all and he was not underrated certainly because he was an Indian fast bowler. So these speed guns reading about him are really irrelevant.

 

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

It is possible to have pace without quality .... like Md. Sami of Pakistan

 

It is also possible to have quality without pace .... like Philander of SA.

 

But how does Srinath become slower if Wasim was a better bowler .... please explain as you said this  ",He was not as good as or as fast as Ws on consistent basis." 

Philander is not the same bowler under unhelpful conditions.

 

Do you think Srinath was as fast as either Ws on consistent basis , I don't think he was. Akram had ability to bowl as fast as anybody.Younis sure had more pace than Srinath when he was in full swing those toe crushing yorkers are testament to that fact.

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

What good it did to Srinath if he was faster??

but we are talking pace alone buddy. No one is claiming Srinath was better than his contemporaries, but he was fast and at times measured faster/fastest. Only Akthar clearly bested him in pace alone. 

[Vilander]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

They are , you don't have to have 160 kmph but you cannot be 115 trundler too. 135-140 is minimum range needed to be good fast bowler and for great bowler you should be consistently operating in these speeds with ability to crank up when needed.

 

My point about Srinath was he was never in Akthar speed category and he certainly did not have the skills of two Ws. He had good enough speed but did not have other tools to become a great fast bowler that's all and he was not underrated certainly because he was an Indian fast bowler. So these speed guns reading about him are really irrelevant.

 

nope they are relevant to your statement, where you said W's were faster than Srinath -> they were not. 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

nope they are relevant to your statement, where you said W's were faster than Srinath -> they were not. 

they were faster ,