Why do some South Indians can speak Hindi fluently while many can't?

[Nikhil_cric]

20 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Never a problem for us bongs, so why would it be a problem for you guys ? Bengali is strictly neuter gender in almost all conversations, there is no 'his or her' aka 'uska or uski' in bengali. 

 

Don't Bengalis intuitively get/understand Hindi a lot more than speakers of South Indian languages because they are still related Indo Aryan languages?

 

It's not the case for Southern languages. So gender is an additional difficulty 

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I am told that if the banana is over ripe, it should be called vaaya payyam with a disgusting facial expression 

Only babies and old people with no teeth are allowed to say vaaya payam.

[BacktoCricaddict]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

Don't Bengalis intuitively get/understand Hindi a lot more than speakers of South Indian languages because they are still related Indo Aryan languages?

 

It's not the case for Southern languages. So gender is an additional difficulty 

Bus is female.

Car is female.

Sykal is male? Uska sykal ghum ho gya.

 

How the heck are you supposed to keep track of that. Like I've said before, it's a trick they came up with to immediately identify the non-native speakers and fleece them :-).

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

Don't Bengalis intuitively get/understand Hindi a lot more than speakers of South Indian languages because they are still related Indo Aryan languages?

 

It's not the case for Southern languages. So gender is an additional difficulty 

Given that South Indian languages have 10-30% loanwords from Sanskrit, these are splitting hairs. 

Grammatically, Hindi and bengali are significantly different, since Bengali grammar does not have gendered pronouns ( we dont say 'he is going to the market'. we say 'o market-e-jacche'. The 'o' is applicable to man,woman,child,oldie, etc. 

Related to the same language family doesnt make your grammar the same, it means you have loanwords from a common source. Lithuanian is related to Hindi, but that doesnt mean a hindi speaker will have any real advantage learning Lithuanian than a Tamizh. 

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

You bongs even mix up verbs for objects like ‘Jol khabo?”

Well Jol Khabo is 'chalti bhaasa'.  In proper bengali its 'jol pan korbo?'. 

Pan= drink/inhale. But no one really use it, we use khabo or gilbo ( gilbo is more crass, it means to swallow/shove it down your gullet).

 

[coffee_rules]

31 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Bus is female.

Car is female.

Sykal is male? Uska sykal ghum ho gya.

 

How the heck are you supposed to keep track of that. Like I've said before, it's a trick they came up with to immediately identify the non-native speakers and fleece them :-).

Very easy all words starting with letters A-M is streeling. After M-Z is pulling. So Bus, Car are female and Sykal is male!! Also, Sykal associated with Maikal and he is male!! Hence.

Edited October 3, 2024 by coffee_rules

[bowl_out]

13 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

If you memorized it from young age, it would be 2nd nature. I learnt all my Hindi numbers, and probably most of my Hindi, from cricket commentary.

I memorized 1 to 36 in my childhood, and stopped after that.. Don't remember why.

It is a struggle after that.

 

I still remember my first visit to Delhi during my college days. I was traveling from Delhi to Bhiwani (Haryana) and the conductor said Chou-sat rupya, I understood that as Rs.46 and gave him a 50 rupee note thinking I will get Rs 4 back. It took a few minutes and adding up some tickets prices for me to understand that it was actually Rs.64

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Given that South Indian languages have 10-30% loanwords from Sanskrit, these are splitting hairs. 

Grammatically, Hindi and bengali are significantly different, since Bengali grammar does not have gendered pronouns ( we dont say 'he is going to the market'. we say 'o market-e-jacche'. The 'o' is applicable to man,woman,child,oldie, etc. 

Related to the same language family doesnt make your grammar the same, it means you have loanwords from a common source. Lithuanian is related to Hindi, but that doesnt mean a hindi speaker will have any real advantage learning Lithuanian than a Tamizh. 

 

The Sanskritised parts of Southern languages are used primary only in literature. 

 

Textual hindi and textual Kannada, Malayalam are a lot more similar and it is well acknowledged.  I found literary Hindi very easy.

 

But common parlance is very different. 

 

Common phrases used in Hindi and southern languages are worlds apart. 

 

Even without knowing Bengali , if you had put that sentence up I can guess what jachhe means. 

 

It's far closer to the Hindi equivalent than any South Indian equivalent 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

The Sanskritised parts of Southern languages are used primary only in literature. 

 

Textual hindi and textual Kannada, Malayalam are a lot more similar and it is well acknowledged.  I found literary Hindi very easy.

 

But common parlance is very different. 

 

Common phrases used in Hindi and southern languages are worlds apart. 

 

Even without knowing Bengali , if you had put that sentence up I can guess what jachhe means. 

 

It's far closer to the Hindi equivalent than any South Indian equivalent 

 

 

 

Common parlayance in every language is hard and has to be learned. Even in english. 

Come to canada and say  'can you show me where is the lift' and they will think you are crazy, coz lift is getting a ride with someone, while what we say lift is an elevator. 
Same with flat - they dont know what that means, except a flat tyre. Its apartment/condo etc. 

Go to UK and its even worse, especially around east london, where English there has so much slang, you will feel like its a different language ( if you dont believe me, watch two english movies named Snatch and Lock,stock & 2 smoking barrels - you wont even understand half the cockney speak). 

But when we actually learn a language, we learn it mostly through literature basis and grammar basis - and there is where there isnt a big advantage/disadvantage between bongs and tamizh for learning hindi because as soon as u enter the standard way of learning languages, the presence of so many loanwords make it relatively similar experience.

 

[coffee_rules]

Link language English for Indians

 

use headphones 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

Also i dunno if this happens to the southern languages, but Bengali, like Hindi, has extreme dialect diversity, where some dialects are simply incomprehensible to us. 
The Bengali i speak/Bengali that is taught in schools is actually Rahr-bangla dialect, which is similar to Khariboli dialect of Hindi. 
However, if someone speaks to me in Chattogram bangla or Sylheti bangla, someone like @coffee_rules will have similar luck at understanding them as me. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Common parlayance in every language is hard and has to be learned. Even in english. 

Come to canada and say  'can you show me where is the lift' and they will think you are crazy, coz lift is getting a ride with someone, while what we say lift is an elevator. 
Same with flat - they dont know what that means, except a flat tyre. Its apartment/condo etc. 

Go to UK and its even worse, especially around east london, where English there has so much slang, you will feel like its a different language ( if you dont believe me, watch two english movies named Snatch and Lock,stock & 2 smoking barrels - you wont even understand half the cockney speak). 

But when we actually learn a language, we learn it mostly through literature basis and grammar basis - and there is where there isnt a big advantage/disadvantage between bongs and tamizh for learning hindi because as soon as u enter the standard way of learning languages, the presence of so many loanwords make it relatively similar experience.

 

I have already watched those movies and no that first example is not even close to being sufficient 

 

Those are just synonyms for the same thing. Elevator is used even in India. And apartment too.

 

It may not be used commonly in Canada.

 

But I'm talking about the ability to intuitively understand another language without significant exposure to that language. 

 

For example, Assamese people intuitively understand Bengali although it's probably not true the other way around. 

 

Malayalis can intuitively understand Tamil even if they're hearing it for the first time. 

 

That gap is much further apart for Southern languages from Hindi at least the spoken versions. 

 

Literary versions are almost useless because what we need, if any, is a functional language for business and communication. 

 

Most people learn when they are in an environment of necessity and where they hear a language a lot. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I have already watched those movies and no that first example is not even close to being sufficient 

 

Those are just synonyms for the same thing. Elevator is used even in India. And apartment too.

 

It may not be used commonly in Canada.

 

But I'm talking about the ability to intuitively understand another language without significant exposure to that language. 

 

For example, Assamese people intuitively understand Bengali although it's probably not true the other way around. 

 

Malayalis can intuitively understand Tamil even if they're hearing it for the first time. 

 

That gap is much further apart for Southern languages from Hindi at least the spoken versions. 

 

Literary versions are almost useless because what we need, if any, is a functional language for business and communication. 

 

Most people learn when they are in an environment of necessity and where they hear a language a lot. 

 

 

Why is that even a factor, when 90% of people dont learn a non-mother tongue intuitively but do it formally ? 

There is nothing intuitive to understand, when the grammar is extemely different. Because understanding comes from grammar, not from just having a few loan words.

Your argument that 'well it may be similar in literature and literature learning may not be much different but it is very different in spoken form on the streets' is largely irrelevant. because thats not how most people learn a 2nd language.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Why is that even a factor, when 90% of people dont learn a non-mother tongue intuitively but do it formally ? 

There is nothing intuitive to understand, when the grammar is extemely different. Because understanding comes from grammar, not from just having a few loan words.

Your argument that 'well it may be similar in literature and literature learning may not be much different but it is very different in spoken form on the streets' is largely irrelevant. because thats not how most people learn a 2nd language.

 

My only point was the gap between the southern languages and Hindi is larger than that from a related Indo Aryan language

 

Are you saying that most people learn a 2nd language through formal education ?  

 

Most people learn a language through immersion not by studying it's grammatical structure. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

My only point was the gap between the southern languages and Hindi is larger than that from a related Indo Aryan language

 

Are you saying that most people learn a 2nd language through formal education ?  

 

Most people learn a language through immersion not by studying it's grammatical structure. 

Most people in the world who have 2nd language competency,learn it formally through school settings or through courses like ESL and stuff. 

So spoken form gap, is largely irrelevant. 
The reason why there is hardly any difficulty to learn hindi formally for bengalis or tamizh, is because the grammars are significantly similar and share significant loanwards, thanks to Sanskrit influence.

WHich is why i think Sanskrit should be the link language. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Most people in the world who have 2nd language competency,learn it formally through school settings or through courses like ESL and stuff. 

So spoken form gap, is largely irrelevant. 
The reason why there is hardly any difficulty to learn hindi formally for bengalis or tamizh, is because the grammars are significantly similar and share significant loanwards, thanks to Sanskrit influence.

WHich is why i think Sanskrit should be the link language. 

 

A working functional knowledge of a language need not come from formal education .  

 

There are plenty of labouring class internal migrants who learn another language even in India. What formal education have they gone through to get there ? 

 

Business communities like Marwaris move all around India and learn the local languages without ever learning to read or write in the language. 

 

Your point about Sanskrit is logical but there are practical difficulties in that .  It's not the same as Hebrew in Israel simply because all 1.4 billion in the country will have to learn it ?

 

Is that even possible to revive a language in that scale. 

 

I'm all for it . I just don't see how it can happen .

 

Besides lack of support for Sanskrit couid likely from a lot of Hindi speakers themselves .

[Muloghonto]

17 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

A working functional knowledge of a language need not come from formal education .  

 

There are plenty of labouring class internal migrants who learn another language even in India. What formal education have they gone through to get there ? 

 

Business communities like Marwaris move all around India and learn the local languages without ever learning to read or write in the language. 

 

Your point about Sanskrit is logical but there are practical difficulties in that .  It's not the same as Hebrew in Israel simply because all 1.4 billion in the country will have to learn it ?

 

Is that even possible to revive a language in that scale. 

 

I'm all for it . I just don't see how it can happen .

 

Besides lack of support for Sanskrit couid likely from a lot of Hindi speakers themselves .

The relevant fact is simple: the vast majority of the world's second language speakers, have learnt it in formal setting, including IN india. 

Business communities like marwaris learn local language via FORMAL education. every single marwari in my school in kolkata took Bengali as third language. 

it is exactly the same as hebrew, because raw numbers do not matter, its % that matters. Like israel circa 1950s, India too has a pool of 0.1%-0.05% people to draw from to teach sanskrit. 

If Israel can revive Hebrew from less than 5% speaking capacity ( in any capacity, even just 10 words) to 99% in half a century, so can we. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

The relevant fact is simple: the vast majority of the world's second language speakers, have learnt it in formal setting, including IN india. 

Business communities like marwaris learn local language via FORMAL education. every single marwari in my school in kolkata took Bengali as third language. 

it is exactly the same as hebrew, because raw numbers do not matter, its % that matters. Like israel circa 1950s, India too has a pool of 0.1%-0.05% people to draw from to teach sanskrit. 

If Israel can revive Hebrew from less than 5% speaking capacity ( in any capacity, even just 10 words) to 99% in half a century, so can we. 

 

There are Marwari, Sindhi communities in Bangalore too. And even the parents end up learning Kannada for business transactions even if the kids had to take Kannada as 3rd language and many didn't do it either. But they still ended up learning the language so I'll have to disagree there. 

 

5 % in India is 70 odd million.  We'll need a linguistic revolution to even get to that figure

[Mariyam]

11 hours ago, Lannister said:

Should a business offering essential services be allowed to run if it fails to serve Kannadigas in their preferred language? 

 

Any business offering services for those activities listed as essential cannot and should not be permitted to run, if they can't offer services in Kannada.

Most essential services are under the State List. De Jure they have to offer services in the local language.

On that there is no difference of opinion.

 

Dr Ambedkar and the others who jotted down the constitution "suggested" to the various states at the time to add English as a state language. Prescient suggestion, as it turned out. So most States have English also as a State language and are forced de jure to offer services in English also. The notable exceptions are Odissa and Pondicherry.

 

 

The real question is about those who avail the service: Must they avail service only in a local language. The answer to that is no. Legally, and morally. To circumvent this precise issue, English was included as a local language.

 

I would like your view on the following:

Say that some guy from Delhi does his Engineering in Pune (not learning Marathi, over the course of his degree), proceeds to do a Masters in the US and works a few years there , only to return in his early to mid 30s to Bangalore to work in a tech start up. He spends 5 years there, most of the time working away or providing/spending time for his family. Do you expect a person in this kind of a situation to learn a local language?

Edited October 3, 2024 by Mariyam

[Mariyam]

3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Man ki baat keh di.
Bollywood has literally tore the image of Hindi in front of everyone...I was watching one movie where Kader Khan sees a kid in temple and asks the pujari, who is this kid ? Pujari says he is "yateem" (orhan in English, anaath in Hindi/Sanskrit)
I was like WTF...who says Yateem in Hindi ? and here a temple pujari is using a persian word. 

 

Very interchangeable in regular usage. Lots of people use the word.

 

Also, under Islamic jurisprudence, Yateem is someone who has lost his/her father. 

There are Islamic charities which pay for the education of children who have lost their fathers. It is quite telling that, if a kid were to lose his/her mother, no Islamic charity would fund the education. Or if they do, those are extremely rare.

 

Anath is a person who has lost both his/her parents.

 

3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Hindi became polluted due to Bollywood. 
Real Hindi is very much close to Sanskrit. 

That is extremely lazy.  Before Bollywood became what it is, no one was speaking a Sanskritized Hindi across the length and the breadth of the country. Perhaps a handful, and mainly those in literary circles. 

 

I don't consider Hindi/Urdu as different languages. Just different scripts for the wider Hindustani language. And a 'purity' scale that goes from heavy usage of Sanskrit to heavy usage of Persian. Most speakers of this tongue are somewhere in the centre of the scale.

The erudite ones are able to slide across from one end of the scale to the other with ease.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Mariyam