Poor squad and team selections have cost us the ODI series in England

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

How is that living in denial ? On what other basis are you supposed to select cricketers on a test tour? That too in England. Someone like Siraj has bowled to Cook in an A game and had taken 7 wickets in these conditions. Shaw and Pant outbatted a senior team member like Vijay in the same conditions. Don't they merit selection based on that?

You just don't discard player like Vijay based on one match and draft Shaw.If you draft Shaw then Vijay should no longer be part of this team. Didn't Cook score a century against Siraj and co so what makes you think Siraj will suddenly get Cook out in first test on Aug 1st for cheap.

 

You don't just select youngsters over seniors like Vijay who scored a century in his last test.I would get Pant into playing over Karthik but that means closing book on Karthik.

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Question is not about if these prospects become good to great down the line. Yes I understand they won't become good unless they are given chances but none of scream select me over the bowlers who have been selected.

 

Ishant, Yadav and Shami along with Bumrah and Bhuvi will be the main core of  fast bowlers who will be there at least till next world cup and if they are selected you cannot blame selectors.

 

Sorry if I am selector I am not selecting Siraj, Rajpoot or Saini in my playing eleven over above bowlers until those five bowlers are totally out of picture for selection.

 

As we start maturing as a pace bowling nation, I think it is important to reward bowlers who are performing in specific formats and weed out bowlers who are not.

 

As far as tests are concerned, Shami, Bumrah and Bhuvi choose themselves based on performances, as they all have low averages and SRs. 

 

Whereas Ishant and Umesh have high averages in tests despite playing for 7 to 10 years.

 

I think some of Siraj, Rajpoot and Saini will do better than these 2 in test matches.

 

We cannot introduce all at once but one at a time.

 

With Bumrah and Bhuvi injured, our pacers could have been say Shami, Siraj, Ishant in the first test.  

 

Playing Umesh and Ishant together means we have 2 non wicket-takers and that looks a bigger risk to me.

 

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If you have any express bowler like Mavi who needs little refinement I would induct them into squad right now to get experience.

 

IMO unless a fast bowler raw pace they need some weapons to consistently get batsmen out on any surface.I don't think Saini and co are that kind.

.

 

 

Currently, we have 4 young pacers who have genuine pace. 

 

They are Mavi, Khaleel, Nagarkoti and Avesh.

 

Siraj was bowling 135 k to 150 k in the IPL and was quicker than his partner Umesh. And he looked quick in the  4-day A tour game that was streamed live.

 

Saini was bowling 135 k to 145 k in the semi final and final of Ranji Trophy.

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Next time, try watching cricket with eyes open

I do that's why I feel Rahul doesn't have any case to feel aggrieved till last odi.First he is fragile and he is not an upgrade over top three in odis.Yes he should have played in third odi at no 4 over Karthik .

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

As we start maturing as a pace bowling nation, I think it is important to reward bowlers who are performing in specific formats and weed out bowlers who are not.

 

As far as tests are concerned, Shami, Bumrah and Bhuvi choose themselves based on performances, as they all have low averages and SRs. 

 

Whereas Ishant and Umesh have high averages in tests despite playing for 7 to 10 years.

 

I think some of Siraj, Rajpoot and Saini will do better than these 2 in test matches.

 

We cannot introduce all at once but one at a time.

 

With Bumrah and Bhuvi injured, our pacers could have been say Shami, Siraj, Ishant in the first test.  

 

Playing Umesh and Ishant together means we have 2 non wicket-takers and that looks a bigger risk to me.

 

 

Currently, we have 4 young pacers who have genuine pace. 

 

They are Mavi, Khaleel, Nagarkoti and Avesh.

 

Siraj was bowling 135 k to 150 k in the IPL and was quicker than his partner Umesh. And he looked quick in the  4-day A tour game that was streamed live.

 

Saini was bowling 135 k to 145 k in the semi final and final of Ranji Trophy.

You answered your own question, while I agree your point on Yadav and Ishant.Ishant is undroppable from the team as he is the one who will do donkey's work and keep run rate down.

 

Yadav has to get chance for first test as he sat on bench for three tests in SA and he has not played much test overseas.So it is only fair to give him chance now if he fails then draft newcomers.

 

Saini and others are young if they keep improving they will get chances.

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You answered your own question, while I agree your point on Yadav and Ishant.Ishant is undroppable from the team as he is the one who will do donkey's work and keep run rate down.

 

I would have dropped Ishant if Bumrah and Bhuvi were present. 

 

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yadav has to get chance for first test as he sat on bench for three tests in SA and he has not played much test overseas.So it is only fair to give him chance now if he fails then draft newcomers.

I don't mind Umesh individually but the combination of Umesh and Ishant makes me uncomfortable.

 

I really want us to win this series rather than be fair to individuals.

 

26 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Saini and others are young if they keep improving they will get chances.

 

Saini is 25 , Siraj and Rajpoot 24.  

 

Pacers need to debut by 22  or  23. Then 2 years or more to mature.   If they debut at 26 / 27 and mature at 28 / 29 ,  how many years will they get bowling at full pace  ?

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

I would have dropped Ishant if Bumrah and Bhuvi were present. 

 

I don't mind Umesh individually but the combination of Umesh and Ishant makes me uncomfortable.

 

I really want us to win this series rather than be fair to individuals.

 

 

Saini is 25 , Siraj and Rajpoot 24.  

 

Pacers need to debut by 22  or  23. Then 2 years or more to mature.   If they debut at 26 / 27 and mature at 28 / 29 ,  how many years will they get bowling at full pace  ?

But Bumrah and Bhuvi are not present and Bhuvi was a question mark before the selection and that is the reason why i don't have any problems with this selection.

Saini or Siraj are not that big upgrade over Umesh if at all. 

 

Those 22 year olds you are talking about are can't miss prospects like Yadav  and Aaron when they were coming up. It is a different story they have not evolved into good bowlers but Yadav is one of best athletes who had success under Kohli so IMO it is not a bad selection.I would have like out and out swing bowler like Bhuvi in the squad but I don't think Siraj or Saini are in Bhuvi's mould.

 

If Siraj or Saini had 8fers or 7fers in these matches for India A I am sure they would have made the cut.

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, putrevus said:

Selectors and this team have invested too much on Umesh Yadav and Shami not to select them when they are healthy. You cannot realistically expect India to go with Ishant and other uncapped bowlers to a series.

 

Mavi was just an example, ideally I want two young fast bowlers who are year away from selection to be part of this team to gain experience.

I am asking to be selected over shardul not umesh or shami.

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

Question is not about if these prospects become good to great down the line. Yes I understand they won't become good unless they are given chances but none of scream select me over the bowlers who have been selected.

 

Ishant, Yadav and Shami along with Bumrah and Bhuvi will be the main core of  fast bowlers who will be there at least till next world cup and if they are selected you cannot blame selectors.

 

Sorry if I am selector I am not selecting Siraj, Rajpoot or Saini in my playing eleven over above bowlers until those five bowlers are totally out of picture for selection.

 

If you have any express bowler like Mavi who needs little refinement I would induct them into squad right now to get experience.

 

IMO unless a fast bowler has raw pace they need some weapons to consistently get batsmen out on any surface.I don't think Saini and co are that kind.

 

Shardul I agree might should not have found a place but he has been part of this setup so maybe you give a pass.

 

Siraj has raw Pace. Regarding skills, Rajpoot and Saini have better skills than umesh and ishant. Saini is fast enough, was bowling 145 k in domestic. Check the video of Rajpoot bowling on the previous page that's as good as any.

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

You just don't discard player like Vijay based on one match and draft Shaw.If you draft Shaw then Vijay should no longer be part of this team. Didn't Cook score a century against Siraj and co so what makes you think Siraj will suddenly get Cook out in first test on Aug 1st for cheap.

 

You don't just select youngsters over seniors like Vijay who scored a century in his last test.I would get Pant into playing over Karthik but that means closing book on Karthik.

Because Siraj did get cook out in 0 in second innings.

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

But Bumrah and Bhuvi are not present and Bhuvi was a question mark before the selection and that is the reason why i don't have any problems with this selection.

Saini or Siraj are not that big upgrade over Umesh if at all. 

 

Those 22 year olds you are talking about are can't miss prospects like Yadav  and Aaron when they were coming up. It is a different story they have not evolved into good bowlers but Yadav is one of best athletes who had success under Kohli so IMO it is not a bad selection.I would have like out and out swing bowler like Bhuvi in the squad but I don't think Siraj or Saini are in Bhuvi's mould.

 

If Siraj or Saini had 8fers or 7fers in these matches for India A I am sure they would have made the cut.

Even at this point, these three are better than Umesh for tests who can leak runs.

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

But Bumrah and Bhuvi are not present and Bhuvi was a question mark before the selection and that is the reason why i don't have any problems with this selection.

Saini or Siraj are not that big upgrade over Umesh if at all. 

 

Those 22 year olds you are talking about are can't miss prospects like Yadav  and Aaron when they were coming up. It is a different story they have not evolved into good bowlers but Yadav is one of best athletes who had success under Kohli so IMO it is not a bad selection.I would have like out and out swing bowler like Bhuvi in the squad but I don't think Siraj or Saini are in Bhuvi's mould.

 

If Siraj or Saini had 8fers or 7fers in these matches for India A I am sure they would have made the cut.

You cant get better than 15 Wickets in 2 games.

[express bowling]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

But Bumrah and Bhuvi are not present and Bhuvi was a question mark before the selection and that is the reason why i don't have any problems with this selection.

 

I don't think anyone has questioned the inclusion of Umesh and Ishant in the test squad.  The only question mark was about Shardul Thakur's selection ...  in whose place Siraj could have been included.

 

This thread is about the ODI squad ... which was filled with short medium pacers apart from Umesh.  

 

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

Saini or Siraj are not that big upgrade over Umesh if at all. 

 

Those 22 year olds you are talking about are can't miss prospects like Yadav  and Aaron when they were coming up. It is a different story they have not evolved into good bowlers but Yadav is one of best athletes who had success under Kohli so IMO it is not a bad selection.I would have like out and out swing bowler like Bhuvi in the squad but I don't think Siraj or Saini are in Bhuvi's mould.

 

If Siraj or Saini had 8fers or 7fers in these matches for India A I am sure they would have made the cut.

 

Have you seen Siraj or Saini bowl in 4-day matches recently to pass this judgement  ?   Both have combined pace with accuracy and seam movement.  And Umesh still lacks accuracy and is dropping pace.

 

Again ... we are wanting Siraj in place of Shardul in the squad.

 

As far as team selection is concerned, the captain and coach decides.  

 

Who knows, after the first test, they might have wanted to replace one of Umesh or Ishant based on performance.

 

 

[rkt.india]

 

 

@putrevus

 

[Nikhil_cric]

13 hours ago, putrevus said:

You just don't discard player like Vijay based on one match and draft Shaw.If you draft Shaw then Vijay should no longer be part of this team. Didn't Cook score a century against Siraj and co so what makes you think Siraj will suddenly get Cook out in first test on Aug 1st for cheap.

 

You don't just select youngsters over seniors like Vijay who scored a century in his last test.I would get Pant into playing over Karthik but that means closing book on Karthik.

Vijay has failed miserably in the last 2.5 years. Not one good series against a decent bowling attack anywhere. My point was not whether Cook scored a ton or not. That was just to show the quality of the A side and that siraj was good enough to take wickets against a decent lineup in these conditions. With bumrah and bhuvi injured and Shami coming back from injury , our bowling attack may not be as effective. Also by a similar token , on what basis was shardul added to the test squad?

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

. Also by a similar token , on what basis was shardul added to the test squad?

 

Shardul Thakur was included in our test squad for the first time in mid-2016.  And has been part of the test squad time and again. But is yet to play a test.

 

He played some ODIs in S.A. but was dropped from the ODI squad to England with Kaul being preferred over him.  Got a chance only when Bumrah injured himself.

 

All this shows that our Team management is not that excited about him and he is considered primarily as a backup and stop-gap player.   When a player is liked by the managrment, like Bumrah is, he gets to play a lot of games like Bumrah immediately after he was added to the test squad.

 

I don't understand the need to promote stop-gap players to this extent ...  just get in some long term prospects by breaking the que.  This is where our selectors have disappointed.

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Shardul Thakur was included in our test squad for the first time in mid-2016.  And has been part of the test squad time and again. But is yet to play a test.

 

He played some ODIs in S.A. but was dropped from the ODI squad to England with Kaul being preferred over him.  Got a chance only when Bumrah injured himself.

 

All this shows that our Team management is not that excited about him and he is considered primarily as a backup and stop-gap player.   When a player is liked by the managrment, like Bumrah is, he gets to play a lot of games like Bumrah immediately after he was added to the test squad.

 

I don't understand the need to promote stop-gap players to this extent ...  just get in some long term prospects by breaking the que.  This is where our selectors have disappointed.

No i was asking whether Shardul had performed well in A games like Siraj or was he just selected into the test squad based on his LOI/IPL performances?

[express bowling]

57 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

No i was asking whether Shardul had performed well in A games like Siraj or was he just selected into the test squad based on his LOI/IPL performances?

 

Shardul was not in the 4 day A team squad to England.

 

He has played such 4 day matches on earlier tours and, as far as I remember, his performances were a mixed bag. He never matched Siraj's performances of 15 wickets from 2 matches.