India decriminalizes Homosexuality

[beetle]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

women are almost always bisexual.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Moochad said:

 

No, your claim is:

That is a verifiable claim and a dishonest statement that displays ignorance of the field. 

Its not. its a negative claim - as in, i have seen no evidence that says hormones are directly controlled ONLY by genes. you are getting caught up in words, where it should be clear from a scientific POV what is and what is not a positive claim. 

2 minutes ago, Moochad said:

There is little, if anything, that can be shown to be 100% down to genetics in humans currently. We in the medical field as well as geneticists lack the tools to sufficiently experiment on humans, and even if we had the tools, it would be unethical.  

 

That does not mean we run with the assumption that every thought in your mind, every urge, is genetically based, either. we certainly have evidence of altering hormonal levels by non-genetic means, which means it CANNOT BE sole purview of genetics. 

 

2 minutes ago, Moochad said:

Just because an experiment is currently impossible and unethical doesn't justify making  baseless blanket statements. It is within the realm of possibility that only genes affect hormones. It is also possible that it is not solely genes. The statement "hormones are not directly controlled by genes only" is unproven. 

no it is not, since consumption of plant hormones can directly affect individual's hormone levels, ergo hormones are not directly controlled by genes either. 

2 minutes ago, Moochad said:

My statement was 

 

Which anyone with training in genetics would know.

i did not dispute your statment, which is why i said genetics provides the template for hormones.

[Franco Vazquez]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

UAE is less free than India. I lived in the gulf for 5 years, i have family who lives in UAE...not a whole lot has changed. A country where couples cant even hold hands in public without it being a crime, is laughable as 'progressive'. 

People have rights in UAE ? you have no freedom of speech. I can yell 'islam is evil' anywhere in the western world. They will term me an extremist maybe, people will boo me, but nobody is going to arrest me for saying islam is evil. Now do that in UAE...

freedom my a$$....

 

you remind me of an Iranian proverb - birds who are born in a cage, think flying is an illness.

 

So you think calling Islam evil is freedom of speech but if you say something about gays it automatically turns into hate speech. The example which you gave is of hate speech and not freedom of speech and that couple thing is BS because if it was true then why the hell a lot of white people live here.

[Stradlater]

@Franco Vazquez Get the * outta here

@Muloghonto Shut the * up

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

Believe it or not, Homosexuality is a mental illness and being mentally ill doesn't mean you harm the society.

you keep making statements without any support to them. ok. in that case, islam is a mental illness...coz i said so. just like how you said so for homosexuality. so if you can accept my POV that islam is a mental illness, i can accept yours - cool ? or maybe i will say being of pakistani origin is a disease....anyone can make any random statement...

 

you have failed to provide a single medical evidence of homosexuality being a disease.

 

 

[Franco Vazquez]

It didn't even take 5 minutes for me to destroy Muloghonto. Its not even the first time I have done it. Muloghonto you should argue with someone who's on your level and your level Gotar.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Franco Vazquez said:

So you think calling Islam evil is freedom of speech but if you say something about gays it automatically turns into hate speech.

yep. islam is a concept. it has no rights. people have rights. if i were to diss muslims, then that would be the equivalent to dissing gays. but islam ? its a bunch of words. nothing more. no rights for a bunch of words - sorry. 

1 minute ago, Franco Vazquez said:

The example which you gave is of hate speech and not freedom of speech and that couple thing is BS because if it was true then why the hell a lot of white people live here.

false. saying XYZ is evil is not hate speech. again, get a better education.hate speech, by definition has to be targetted towards a being or a bunch of people. saying muslims are evil, is hate speech. 

If i walked around here with 'muslims are evil' poster, yes cops will get involved. But if i walked around with 'islam is evil', no cop will harass me. you clearly have no ideas on rights, which is not surprising since you live in a kingdom where a Sheikh 'deciedes' what rights to give or not give. 

[Franco Vazquez]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

you keep making statements without any support to them. ok. in that case, islam is a mental illness...coz i said so. just like how you said so for homosexuality. so if you can accept my POV that islam is a mental illness, i can accept yours - cool ? or maybe i will say being of pakistani origin is a disease....anyone can make any random statement...

 

you have failed to provide a single medical evidence of homosexuality being a disease.

 

 

Ok I accept that Muslims are mentally ill and Pakistani are mentally ill if that helps you sleep at night

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Franco Vazquez said:

It didn't even take 5 minutes for me to destroy Muloghonto. Its not even the first time I have done it. Muloghonto you should argue with someone who's on your level and your level Gotar.

Says the kid who cannot provide a straight answer a single time - i asked you many times -produce a medical paper that shows homosexuality is a disease, that is from the last 20 years. Until you do, your opinion is unsupported nonsense, based on islamic views on the topic. 

[Franco Vazquez]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Says the kid who cannot provide a straight answer a single time - i asked you many times -produce a medical paper that shows homosexuality is a disease, that is from the last 20 years. Until you do, your opinion is unsupported nonsense, based on islamic views on the topic. 

The opposite of normal is abnormal and now please don't say that homosexuality in men is normal because its not. Ask any male in your Canada and US to have sex with you and they will straight on punch you on the face and during the treatment please also get your head checked. Any type of behaviour which is genetically abnormal becomes illness just like people with Down Syndrome or Autism. You won't call autism normal right?

[Moochad]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I pointed out that WHO is a political body making political decisions. They are not a medical body run strictly by physicians. WHO is not Health Canada. .

Health Canada is also a political organization when it comes to this Psychiatry field. The WHO essentially takes the views of all countries on health issues. Psychiatry as a field has always been mired in politics and culture.

Sometimes the same disease, ie depression, show differently in different cultures Japan vs US. There are also different perspectives on certain diseases and whether they are diseases/disorders at all or if they need treatment, even something like ADD.

 

Although we in countries like India, Canada, US for example, don't view say Homosexuality as a disorder/disease, there is an inherent ambiguity in Psychiatry where it's possible that it is indeed a disorder, such that Islamic countries are free to treat it differently within their countries. The field has accusations of "Americanizaiton of mental illness" where the standards of the field are set by Americans and other countries are different culturally and thus American standards won't necessarily apply to them.   

[Franco Vazquez]

You know you lose the argument when you start personal attacks which Muloghonto did by involving my country which is not even related to the topic. I want MODs to take strict action against Muloghonto because its not the first time he has attacked me personally

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Moochad said:

Health Canada is also a political organization when it comes to this Psychiatry field. The WHO essentially takes the views of all countries on health issues. Psychiatry as a field has always been mired in politics and culture.

Sometimes the same disease, ie depression, show differently in different cultures Japan vs US. There are also different perspectives on certain diseases and whether they are diseases/disorders at all or if they need treatment, even something like ADD.

 

Although we in countries like India, Canada, US for example, don't view say Homosexuality as a disorder/disease, there is an inherent ambiguity in Psychiatry where it's possible that it is indeed a disorder, such that Islamic countries are free to treat it differently within their countries. The field has accusations of "Americanizaiton of mental illness" where the standards of the field are set by Americans and other countries are different culturally and thus American standards won't necessarily apply to them.   

wait...so you agree with me when i dismiss psychiatry as mired in politics and culture, hence GTFO with psychiatry as a hard science, yet you oppose me on that.... Sensible !

 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

You know you lose the argument when you start personal attacks which Muloghonto did by involving my country which is not even related to the topic. I want MODs to take strict action against Muloghonto because its not the first time he has attacked me personally

You are the one who lost the argument from the first post then, because you attacked some people (homoesxuals ) as mentally ill with no evidence provided. And still fail to do so. 

And if you were better educated than the scum-type PIS (Pakistan International Schools) that proliferate in the middle east, you'd know the difference between attacking your country and running an analogy using your country as one. 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

The opposite of normal is abnormal and now please don't say that homosexuality in men is normal because its not. As

I don't care if its normal or not normal. You said disease. Which is a medical term. Provide evidence that homosexuality is a disease or accept the fact that you passed judgement on something you are ignorant of. 

7 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

k any male in your Canada and US to have sex with you and they will straight on punch you on the face and during the treatment please also get your head checked.

Most won't punch me in the face because most men here are not that insecure about being closet-gays like yourself that any and all mention of being gay in public offends you.

There is a long history of vocal conservative anti-gay spokespeople being closet gays themselves, unable to 'remain in the closet' with greater acceptance of such things.

7 minutes ago, Franco Vazquez said:

Any type of behaviour which is genetically abnormal becomes illness just like people with Down Syndrome or Autism. You won't call autism normal right?

There is no basis to say that it is genetically abnormal. We can just as easily say that certain % of population being gay is perfectly genetically normal as a genetic response to natural curbing of population growth rates in a species. 

 

You are passing value judgements with zero evidence. 

Show us medical evidence that homosexuality is an illness - any scholarly medical paper of the last 20 years will do. 

[Franco Vazquez]

MODS please take action against Muloghonto because he keeps on attacking me on threads or if there's block option on this forum because as others have also said that Muloghonto has got this knack of getting personal and attacking when he can't force people to abide by his views.

[Moochad]

13 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Its not. its a negative claim - as in, i have seen no evidence that says hormones are directly controlled ONLY by genes. you are getting caught up in words, where it should be clear from a scientific POV what is and what is not a positive claim. 

Nonsense, there is nothing like positive-negative claim nonsense in science. A negative claim is verifiable. I can test if a drug doesn't treat a disease. Negative hypotheses, Stabolon does not treat Arrhythmia.

 

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

That does not mean we run with the assumption that every thought in your mind, every urge, is genetically based, either. we certainly have evidence of altering hormonal levels by non-genetic means, which means it CANNOT BE sole purview of genetics. 

no it is not, since consumption of plant hormones can directly affect individual's hormone levels, ergo hormones are not directly controlled by genes either. 

Not in the context of this thread, which is talking about sexuality of people. There is nothing I am aware of that suggests that say consuming plastics will turn someone into a homosexual. These sexual minorities almost to a man view that they are born that way only. 

 

Again those are not 1 to 1 studies. There could be a genetic basis which makes one eat those plants in the first place, a genetic basis to be affected by those plants to the extent to alter hormone levels, etc. They can very well be possibly only in the purview of genetics.  

 

   

 

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Franco Vazquez said:

MODS please take action against Muloghonto because he keeps on attacking me on threads or if there's block option on this forum because as others have also said that Muloghonto has got this knack of getting personal and attacking when he can't force people to abide by his views.

show us medical evidence that homosexuality is a disease like you've claimed so many times. Stop trying to run to the mods when such a simple question is asked. 
If you were anything more than a flunky in your high school, you should've been easily able to find articles to support your viewpoint (as in scientific, peer reviewed articles), if your views were actually credible. 

[Nikhil_cric]

58 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Now this is what I was talking about.

 

I gave an opposing opinion without hating on homos, and you respond with this aggressive post. Propaganda where traditionalists are forced to compromise over their own rights.

What are the Indian traditionalist views on homosexuality though? 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Moochad said:

Nonsense, there is nothing like positive-negative claim nonsense in science. A negative claim is verifiable. I can test if a drug doesn't treat a disease. Negative hypotheses, Stabolon does not treat Arrhythmia.

 

Not in the context of this thread, which is talking about sexuality of people. There is nothing I am aware of that suggests that say consuming plastics will turn someone into a homosexual. These sexual minorities almost to a man view that they are born that way only. 

 

Again those are not 1 to 1 studies. There could be a genetic basis which makes one eat those plants in the first place, a genetic basis to be affected by those plants to the extent to alter hormone levels, etc. They can very well be possibly only in the purview of genetics.  

 

   

 

 

There simply is no evidence for such hard genetic determinism, is my point. 
The fact that you can be born gay, hormone balances determine orientation and that hormones are not 100% controlled by genes only are not mutually incongruent statements.