Won't it be the solution to play 3 all rounders on a consistant basis with Jadeja at no:6?

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Not Pandya please. We need a specialist front line bowler who will take wickets regularly. 

 

 

Can't have a bowler who can't bat at No.8 or No.7... especially with a weak No.6

[Khota]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Unlike what you would like to believe, ARs have come up with impact performances to help Ind win:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team England

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 9 Sep 2017 and 9 Sep 2018

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

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Showing 1 - 17 of 17

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
RA Jadeja	1	86	86*	-	0	5	4/79	23.00	0	0	0	-
HH Pandya	4	164	52*	23.42	0	10	5/28	24.70	1	0	0	-1.27
R Ashwin	4	126	33*	21.00	0	11	4/62	32.72	0	1	0	-11.72
I Sharma	5	37	14	5.28	0	18	5/51	24.16	1	0	0	-18.88
JJ Bumrah	3	6	6	2.00	0	14	5/85	23.42	1	1	0	-21.42
UT Yadav	1	1	1*	-	0	3	2/20	25.33	0	0	0	-
Mohammed Shami	5	27	10*	3.37	0	15	4/57	36.26	0	1	0	-32.89
S Dhawan	4	161	44	23.00	0	-	-	-	-	2	0	-
KD Karthik	2	21	20	5.25	0	-	-	-	-	5	0	-
V Kohli	5	593	149	65.88	2	-	-	-	-	4	0	-
Kuldeep Yadav	1	0	0	0.00	0	0	-	-	0	0	0	-
RR Pant	3	48	24	9.60	0	-	-	-	-	13	0	-
CA Pujara	4	278	132*	46.33	1	-	-	-	-	0	0	-
AM Rahane	5	220	81	24.44	0	-	-	-	-	4	0	-
KL Rahul	5	150	37	16.66	0	-	-	-	-	13	0	-
GH Vihari	1	56	56	56.00	0	0	-	-	0	0	0	-
M Vijay	2	26	20	6.50	0	-	-	-	-	0	0	-

He was the 5 best bat and took the fewest wickets. What am I missing?

[SecondSlip]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Can't have a bowler who can't bat at No.8 or No.7... especially with a weak No.6

We are back to square one. This is why I am saying that we need a batting allrounder who can average at least 40 with the bat and can bowl 10-15 tight overs of spin bowling in a day at #6. 

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

ATG all-rounders like Hadlee, Botham and Kapil had low batting averages too.  Imran's improved a bit after he quit bowling and became a batsman.  

 

Akram, Flintoff, Pollock, Stokes ... all have low batting averages.

 

There hasn't been any bowling all-rounder  in the last 45 years who has averaged over 35 with the bat after sufficient test matches barring Imran.

Now a lot of players avg 40+ (around 50 in last 10 years w/ those over 2k runs). In 80s for e.g., with those above 2k runs, only 20 or so avg above 40 

 

The players listed above usually play in Eng and SA. Akram played most of his games at 8-9 position 

 

These guys, if slotted at #6, have to avg a little higher than 30 to be labeled as ARs. For 8-9 position, I would take an avg of 30 or less esp. if they make it to the side as one of the top 4 bowlers

Edited September 10, 2018 by zen

[zen]

9 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

We are back to square one. This is why I am saying that we need a batting allrounder who can average at least 40 with the bat and can bowl 10-15 tight overs of spin bowling in a day at #6. 

 

Note that in the last 5 years, below is what our batsmen have done:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date between 10 Sep 2013 and 10 Sep 2018

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 500

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2013-2018	53	90	5	4972	243	58.49	8053	61.74	19	13	4	546	12
CA Pujara	2013-2018	49	82	4	3629	202	46.52	8008	45.31	11	15	4	427	7
AM Rahane	2013-2018	49	83	9	3105	188	41.95	6019	51.58	9	14	6	353	23
RG Sharma	2013-2018	25	43	6	1479	177	39.97	2682	55.14	3	9	4	144	29
M Vijay	2013-2018	43	74	1	2894	155	39.64	6318	45.80	9	12	6	336	24
S Dhawan	2013-2018	33	56	1	2127	190	38.67	3278	64.88	6	5	4	283	10
KL Rahul	2014-2018	29	47	1	1662	199	36.13	2874	57.82	4	11	4	199	11
RA Jadeja	2013-2018	32	48	12	1185	90	32.91	1844	64.26	0	9	3	118	33
WP Saha	2014-2018	30	42	8	1090	117	32.05	2392	45.56	3	5	5	103	11
HH Pandya	2017-2018	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12
MS Dhoni	2013-2014	13	23	1	667	82	30.31	1239	53.83	0	5	2	92	3
R Ashwin	2013-2018	46	67	7	1673	124	27.88	3135	53.36	3	8	2	186	9

 

Only 3 batsmen avg above 40. Pandya is new. Dhoni has retired. 

[coffee_rules]

We became a #1 team by playing 5 bowlers 3 seamers ans 2 Spinners in India. In away matches, we need 3 seamers, with a bowler like Bhuvi and a proper #6 batsman and a  spinner.who can bat like Jadeja or Ashwin. Simple. Pandya is inadequate in Tests , can be a replacement in India only not in SENA.

[zen]

1 hour ago, Khota said:

He was the 5 best bat and took the fewest wickets. What am I missing?

I don't know why would you post this   ....  Has 10 wkts. Bowled in 6 innings only. So that is a very good performance for a 5th bowler, taking wkts per inning and SR in to account. Changed the game in 3rd test .... On top of that has 164 runs with a decent avg for the conditions. Got out last at Lords where he could have taken Ind towards victory if he had more support 

 

Anyways, I understand that you don't like Pandya but at least appreciate good performance which he put in for team Ind including pulling of a test win .... You won't get a heart attack appreciating a good performance 

Edited September 10, 2018 by zen

[zen]

4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

We became a #1 team by playing 5 bowlers 3 seamers ans 2 Spinners in India. In away matches, we need 3 seamers, with a bowler like Bhuvi and a proper #6 batsman and a  spinner.who can bat like Jadeja or Ashwin. Simple. Pandya is inadequate in Tests , can be a replacement in India only not in SENA.

You are playing 5 proper bowlers and 6 proper batsmen. Who will be the WK?

[Khota]

49 minutes ago, zen said:

I don't know why would you post this   ....  Has 10 wkts. Bowled in 6 innings only. So that is a very good performance for a 5th bowler, taking wkts per inning and SR in to account. Changed the game in 3rd test .... On top of that has 164 runs with a decent avg for the conditions. Got out last at Lords where he could have taken Ind towards victory if he had more support 

 

Anyways, I understand that you don't like Pandya but at least appreciate good performance which he put in for team Ind including pulling of a test win .... You won't get a heart attack appreciating a good performance 

My personal likes and dislikes have nothing to do with any player. I only like players who perform. It is my opinion that he is neither a good bowler or a good batsman. He took fewest wickets of all the bowlers and his batting was only better than a woefully out of confidence batsman. He in my opinion has no place in the team.

He does display fighting qualities that I do appreciate.

[rtmohanlal]

4 hours ago, SecondSlip said:

We need the batting allrounder to average at least 40 minimum. I am not sure if Jadeja can achieve that so I won't say too much on him. 

Is there anyone in Ranji trophy who is a batsman that will give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling? He doesn't even have to be a wickettaker. Just a 5th bowler who comes onto bowl when the 4 fast bowlers need a bit of a break. 

who says that??? How much did Botham average?? He batted mostly at 6th position for his team .Avg:ed only 33.54.

[rtmohanlal]

Jadeja  avg:s around 50  with the bat and <25 with the ball in first class barring tests. That is  being great in both batting and bowling at least in first class.How many world class all rounders who have played the game as of now can boast of such a domestic record???

May be Sobers. Then Kapil? Botham? Imran?  no .... they don't have. And these 3 ATG bowling  all rounders didn't go on to become 40+

avg:ing test batsmen  either.Botham batted at 6 th position on the avg:.With Jadeja he has the added adv: that he is a spin bowler which takes far lesser toll on the body. And in my OP , i gave in detail his credentials. I don't know what more is required to at least give a chance at no: 6 .

[GautiMaan]

The expectation would have been for numbers 6,7 and 8 to make up for the lack of a specialist batsman at 6 Unfortunately neither Ashwin nor the keepers could even get to 40 runs which is pathetic and screwed the series for us. 

Now Jadeja and Pandya have stood out and these two should play maximum games but it took the team management the entire series to learn that

I wouldnt be surprised if in the Aus tour we make the same mistakes.Its always a case of what ifs with Kohli's team

[rkt.india]

Kuldeep is an alrounder heard for the first time! 

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, zen said:

After a few games, if Jadeja does not live up to the high standards, many fans would be asking to replace Jadeja  

 

Disappointing. Strategically we are weak. Ind fans overrate their team and the players. They want the team to win everything. The players, including ATGs, usually don't live up to fan's high standards. Anyone who does well is automatically seen as a solution in the short term till he becomes inconsistent .... the cycle continues 

 

To improve selection in test cricket, first we have to acknowledge that Ashwin, Jadeja (though he has potential), Bhuvi, etc. are not test all-rounders. They are bowlers who can bat well. In the past, Kumble, Srinath, etc. had shown batting potential as well and perceived as players who can be all-rounders. We cannot imagine that the talent displayed in an occasional good inning will be continued by them consistently

 

Being an All-rounder is a responsibility. Unless you are a natural talent, you have to devote time to develop both aspect of your game. These guys are not even consistent in their primary area of strength. Coming out and playing a few good knocks here and there is different than becoming accountable as an all-rounder. A bad performance in your primary area can make your stock fall sharply like what happened to Ashwin in the last game. A good batting performance by him probably would not have saved him from criticism for the failure to deliver with the ball, his primary area  

 

 

Jadeja for sure has always been an alrounder. He may not have full-filled his promise but we cant say he was not an alrounder. averages 53 in FC cricket. Even likes of Dhawan and Vijay did not do that. So, there is certainly something.

[rtmohanlal]

And the most important  factor  I think of  when  playing those 3 and 'even Kuldeep  too in Asia' is not all of them to technically  & effectively  do the 'role of a perfect all rounder' each, but to satisfy the theory that  'the sum of their parts' make up the contribution of specialists . Even in the on going series Ashwin & Pandya together avg:  around 41.5   in batting &  around 28.5 with the ball, and that is effectively playing a batsman and bowler each.And Jadeja.... as of now he is the best batsman and bowler in the lone test he is playing.

And this coming in an alien country gives too much hopes.

 

Just imagine a line up of  Jadeja,Ashwin,Pant,Pandya in that order.... 2 left handers, 2 right handers,  1 grafter, 1 'as per the situation' in Jadeja & other 2 explosive  batsmen. All 4  being at the crease for a continued period of time can bring in as much variety as  one can

ask for .Such  a line up is the most flexible and effective one to put as much runs on the board as possible.And they 4 together can easily

do the role of 2 specialist batsmen & 2specialist bowlers  each.

[youngindia]

I had always expected Jadeja to be better than Ashwin in batting. After a long overdue wait, he looks like he has reached his final level and ready to play a role as a good batsman down the order in tests. If he can play like this, he can play anywhere.  Certainly a plus for the future. He played well vs Australia  as well but the batting i saw yesterday was in a different league from the past.

 

And its equally disappointing that Pujara and Rahane are a bit stagnant and going though the motions.

 

However allrounders should not be misused. An allrounder cannot be played even at 7  as the wicket keeper is too raw. You need six specialists. Only when you have a solid contributor for a keeper, it is possible. But having  an allrounder is  far from a necessity.

 

I have been saying from 2013 that the no 6 batsman has to be developed. The 5th bowler and allrounder are no game changers.

It was always a going to be a waste of time.

 

Infact a pool of 7-8 batsmen has to be maintained. I would look at Shubnam Gill next year. IF  Baba Aparajith has a good season, he can be looked at too. 

 

Good that Vihari was brought in despite a low profile and he was always marked as a test batsman. It was great to see him adapting the challenge quickly. Very  impressive start.

 

 

[express bowling]

6 hours ago, SecondSlip said:

We are back to square one. This is why I am saying that we need a batting allrounder who can average at least 40 with the bat and can bowl 10-15 tight overs of spin bowling in a day at #6. 

 

 

As I said, we don't have one ready, as far as I know.

 

So, playing 5 bowling options means having a weaker No.6.  Moreover, most teams nowadays wants a bowler who can bat for the No.8 slot.

 

 

[express bowling]

Although just one innings is not a very good window to the future ...

 

but  Jadeja's innings yesterday was of a very high quality.  Broad and Anderson were bowling with accuracy and guile, the ball was swinging a lot and there was good bounce which Stokes and Broad used , some balls were spinning sharply from the rough for Rasheed and Moeen.

 

Jadeja showed impeccable understanding of where his off stump is ... left very well as a result, and not just on line but on length too ... did not poke at deliveries outside the off stump ... his bat speed was good and he did not push at deliveries while defending ... defended with soft hands ... but never missed any chance of scoring off bad balls ... spaced his innings well ... farmed the strike when tailenders were there ... negotiated the new ball ... started hitting when no.11 was there ... drove, pulled and cut well.

 

It must be one of the near perfect innings I have seen in swinging cinditions.

 

Jadeja may never play such an innings again ... but if he does, it bodes well for the future.

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

from which site you got that 

I am talking about proper FC numbers excluding test stats. His FC average before test debut used to be around that number. Current FC stats include test and other FC games like warmups and tour games and A games.

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

from which site you got that 

You can calculate it.

 

a )  Subtract Jadeja's test runs from total FC runs.

 

b )  Subtract Jadeja's test innings from total FC innings, after adjusting for not outs for both.

 

Divide  (a)  by  ( b)