Are we missing Pandya already?

[Trichromatic]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Since he has been fast tracked (and has shown signs of brilliance) there is no harm in persisting with him (vs so called specialist batsmen who look vulnerable at the crease) .... Pant is evolving as a batsman so can naturally move up to 6 based on the strengths of our line up. Pandya can bat at either 6 or 7

 

Will Vihari be persisted if he averaged 31 in 11 games and gets out like Pandya?

 

There is a harm and lot of chances that he will remain a low 20s or 30 avg batsman because of lack of FC experience.

 

Failures of others doesn't convert his failure into success. 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Will Vihari be persisted if he averaged 31 in 11 games and gets out like Pandya?

 

There is a harm and lot of chances that he will remain a low 20s or 30 avg batsman because of lack of FC experience.

 

Failures of others doesn't convert his failure into success. 

Based on how Vihari has batted and averaged, he should not be in anyway until he improves his game .... Pandya offers value with the ball too as the 5th bowler (3rd or 4th seamer) and has won us a test in SENA. Also did well in wins vs SL and AFG 

 

I have posted my preferred 11 in my last post .... you may have missed it since I edited that post 

[Khota]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

by going in with 4 bowler arent we leaving it on chance that 4 will be enough to do the job

 

Wish u cud come up with a fact , rather then saying i knw it all 

 

Point to me where I said I know it all. I just state the obvious and I fully understand you follow the game more than I do. Cricket is one of the three sports I follow and not the one I play anymore.

[Khota]

3 hours ago, goose said:

what odds on Pandya never playing for India again?

 

the spine of this test for years to come should be:

 

6 batsmen

Pant

Jadeja

Bumrah

2 pacers

 

sorry Zen for your loss

It is going to come down to team philosphy. He is btter than anyone else in India for a pace bowling batting combo. His fielding is a plus but he will have no room if I have to pick a team unless he excels in bowling.

[Trichromatic]

18 minutes ago, zen said:

 Based on how Vihari has batted and averaged, he should not be in anyway until he improves his game .... Pandya offers value with the ball too as the 5th bowler (3rd or 4th seamer) and has won us a test in SENA. Also did well in wins vs SL and AFG 

  

 I have posted my preferred 11 in my last post .... you may have missed it since I edited that post 

And Pandya isn't good enough option with bat atm. A player with avg of 30 doesn't fit this line up at no 6. It's simple as that.

[zen]

Just now, Trichromatic said:

And Pandya isn't good enough option with bat atm. A player with avg of 30 doesn't fit this line up at no 6. It's simple as that.

He does once you optimize the batting + Pant showing greater potential than some of the specialist batsmen .... if one wants to play struggling batsmen in the 11 among the top 5 in the name of strengthening the batting on paper (theoretically), it is a different story 

 

Practically, once you optimize the 5 batting slots and the 4 bowling slots, Pant + Pandya give the 11 an incredible boost and versatility 

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

He does once you optimize the batting + Pant showing greater potential than some of the specialist batsmen .... if one wants to play struggling batsmen in the 11 among the top 5 in the name of strengthening the batting on paper (theoretically), it is a different story 

 

Practically, once you optimize the 5 batting slots and the 4 bowling slots, Pant + Pandya give the 11 an incredible boost and versatility 

Captain plays struggling batsman in hope that in long run they will turn out to be good batsmen avg 42-45 in career. That's their batting is questioned and they are dropped if they fail.

 

How doesn't Pandya fit in similar role in long run? Here you're assuming that his batting will become at same level of a settled batsman which is unlikely because of his lack of FC cricket.

 

You're just saying that since one guy failed, so it's ok to have another mediocre player at same spot.

[zen]

11 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Captain plays struggling batsman in hope that in long run they will turn out to be good batsmen avg 42-45 in career. That's their batting is questioned and they are dropped if they fail.

 

How doesn't Pandya fit in similar role in long run? Here you're assuming that his batting will become at same level of a settled batsman which is unlikely because of his lack of FC cricket.

 

You're just saying that since one guy failed, so it's ok to have another mediocre player at same spot.

As I said once you optimize the 5 batting slots and 4 bowling slots, Pant+Pandya give incredible boost and versality to the 11 

 

to put it in numbers, I expect

 

* Pant to avg 45+, which no WK batsman has done so far for Ind. And which changes the dynamics of the 11

* Pandya will average in the 35-40 bracket when he plays all around the world, and also give you 2-3 wkts per tests if not more 

 

PS and since these two would play tests, it will improve their game to make them more effective in LOIs as well, benefitting Ind further 

Edited January 6, 2019 by zen

[Trichromatic]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

As I said once you optimize the 5 batting slots and 4 bowling slots, Pant+Pandya give incredible boost and versality to the 11 

 

 to put put it in numbers, I expect

 

 * Pant to avg 45+, which no WK batsman has done so far for Ind. And which changes the dynamics of the 11

 * Pandya will average in the 35-40 bracket when he plays all around the world, and also give you 2-3 wkts per tests if not more 

  

PS and since these two would play tests, it will improve their game to make them more effective in LOIs as well, benefitting Ind further 

That's the problem. You're expecting him to avg mid 30s to 40s directly. How will that happen? Magically? Yiou're just hoping that he will simply play international cricket and bat like that without any effort in FC cricket. That's what I am saying. It doesn't work like that with batsmen. Unless he plays enough FC cricket, he can't do it. 

 

It's very simple, all you have to do is to look history of Indian cricket.

 

2-3 wickets are too much. 1.5-2 would be great effort. But tricky part is batting and he can't have that high 30s average without FC experience. If he is persisted at current level he will remain low 20s-30 bat avg player.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

That's the problem. You're expecting him to avg mid 30s to 40s directly. How will that happen? Magically?

 

2-3 wickets are too much. 1.5 would be great effort. But tricky part is batting and he can't have that high 30s average without FC experience. If he is persisted at current level he will remain low 20s-30 bat avg player.

He is already avg 31 despite playing 7 of his 11 tests in SA and Eng in his first season. He avgs 60+ in decent batting conditions 

 

In 2019, we play in WI and Ind, so his avg would potentially get much higher esp since he plays 1-2 good knocks (50+) in every series and can have a few not outs as well 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by zen

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

He is already avg 31 despite playing 7 of his 11 tests in SA and Eng in his first season. He avgs 60+ in decent batting conditions 

 

 In 2019, we play in WI and Ind, so his avg would potentially get much higher esp since he plays 1-2 good knocks (50+) in every series and can have a few not outs as well 

 

 

In long run it will remain in low 20s-30. First few sessions can be fluke success or failure. In long only those batsmen succeed who have done well at FC level and there are no exceptions to that at least in Indian cricket.

[zen]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

In long run it will remain in low 20s-30. First few sessions can be fluke success or failure. In long only those batsmen succeed who have done well at FC level and there are no exceptions to that at least in Indian cricket.

If he is not doing well, no one is going to support him. Right now, he is showing good potential .... and is one of the unique players with the potential to hit test 100s and bowl at 140+ .... and as has been pointed out, he has delivered in Ranji post injury and was the lone performer in difficult batting conditions Ind A’s game (scorecard posted on this thread by @Ankit_sharma03 )

Edited January 6, 2019 by zen

[Trichromatic]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

If he is not doing well, no one is going to support him. Right now, he is showing good potential .... and is one of the unique players with the potential to hit test 100s and bowl at 140+ .... and as has been pointed out, he has delivered in Ranji post injury and was the lone performer in difficult batting conditions Ind A’s game (scorecard posted on this thread by @Ankit_sharma03 )

And none of those indicate that he will be 35-40 avg batsman.

 

History of Indian cricket shows that he will be 30 or below avg batsman. He has shown potential to be higher than 20+ for sure, so he will reach his max level of his domestics which is 30. And that's not going to be enough.

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

And none of those indicate that he will be 35-40 avg batsman.

 

History of Indian cricket shows that he will be 30 or below avg batsman. He has shown potential to be higher than 20+ for sure, so he will reach his max level of his domestics which is 30. And that's not going to be enough.

As long as he helps Ind win test matches, he should be ok .... esp in an optimized 11 

 

As I said, I expect him to avg 35+ considering he plays everywhere .... ARs such as Sakib are avg 40 for e.g., and in terms of potential and what we have seen so far in various formats, Pandya is among the best youngsters 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by zen

[Rasgulla]

2 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

“Virat or Sachin, who is a better batsman”, asks Karan Johar.

“Virat” says Pandya without any hesitation.

 

Poor him. Not likely to win him many fans 

 I am is #1 fan from today. Will get my forum name changed on that said 

[Trichromatic]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

As long as he helps Ind win test matches, he should be ok .... esp in an optimized 11 

 

As I said, I expect him to avg 35+ considering he plays everywhere .... ARs such as Sakid are avg 40 for e.g. and in terms of potential and what we have seen so far in various formats, Pandya is among the best youngsters 

 

 

Win won't come with lower standard of performance.

[zen]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Win won't come with lower standard of performance.

He has already won Ind tests vs SL, AFG and Eng  .... while playing that exceptional knock in SA where if others had performed at his level, Ind could have won that test .... even in the first test in Eng, he was 2nd highest scorer, and the last man out and fighting to take Ind to a win in that test or the other test 

 

On the other hand specialist batsmen such as Vijay, Dhawan, KL, Rahane, Vihari, etc., have been either inconsistent or struggling (lower standard of performance)

 

PS since all the established batsmen of previous generation retired, below is how are batsman have fared:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 10 of 10

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2014-2019	55	94	5	5106	243	57.37	8475	60.24	20	12	6	554	13
CA Pujara	2014-2019	51	86	4	3836	202	46.78	8637	44.41	12	16	6	443	9
AM Rahane	2014-2019	53	89	8	3271	188	40.38	6421	50.94	9	15	6	359	24
S Dhawan	2014-2018	29	51	1	1996	190	39.92	3038	65.70	6	5	4	263	10
M Vijay	2014-2018	41	72	1	2726	155	38.39	5967	45.68	9	11	7	305	24
RG Sharma	2014-2018	23	41	6	1252	102*	35.77	2351	53.25	1	10	3	113	27
RA Jadeja	2014-2019	35	52	13	1380	100*	35.38	2139	64.51	1	10	3	134	38
KL Rahul	2014-2019	34	56	2	1905	199	35.27	3282	58.04	5	11	6	225	14
WP Saha	2014-2018	30	42	8	1090	117	32.05	2392	45.56	3	5	5	103	11
R Ashwin	2014-2018	46	67	6	1573	118	25.78	3060	51.40	2	8	2	175	8

 

Only two batsmen are averaging above 41, further highlighting the importance of ARs such as Pandya (as has been discussed) 

Edited January 6, 2019 by zen

[fineleg]

I am not a fan of Hardik Pandya but will ask - Whats wrong in picking HP instead of KLR for Sydney Test?
Can offer same single digit score with bat as makeshift opener but can offer some bowling (relief bowl and/or a wicket). So, why not instead of KLR as temporary makeshift. Clearly KLR was trusted by team mgmt, which IMO was a mistake as we said before Syd test started.

Edited January 6, 2019 by fineleg

[coffee_rules]

47 minutes ago, fineleg said:

I am not a fan of Hardik Pandya but will ask - Whats wrong in picking HP instead of Rahane for Sydney Test?
Can offer same under-20 score with bat as makeshift MO, but can offer some bowling (relief bowl and/or a wicket). So, why not instead of Rahaneas temporary makeshift. Clearly Rahanewas trusted by team mgmt, which IMO was a mistake as we said before Syd test started.

Fixed. 

[R.D forever]

1 hour ago, zen said:

He has already won Ind tests vs SL, AFG and Eng  .... while playing that exceptional knock in SA where if others had performed at his level, Ind could have won that test .... even in the first test in Eng, he was 2nd highest scorer, and the last man out and fighting to take Ind to a win in that test or the other test 

 

On the other hand specialist batsmen such as Vijay, Dhawan, KL, Rahane, Vihari, etc., have been either inconsistent or struggling (lower standard of performance)

Jeez are u still trying to fool people with the same crap. That was no way an exceptional innings. That was throwing his bat at everything after 8 wickets with no pressure whatsoever. He has never soaked the pressure and played a long innings. Even the 50 in England was a declaration innings. Why don't u post his other scores in Eng and SA. He didn't even cross 30 once .. 

 

This Aus series win is a proof that pandya is not needed and infact the main reason for series loss in SA and Eng