Shubman Gill needs to be tried in test matches and ODIs

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

And who are those guys ?

 

We were in such a soup because the team management could not find a good No.4 in 2 years time.

 

 

We are in soup because there were no viable candidates , Iyer I also thought had lot of weaknesses but he showed something, he should have been given more chances.Other than Iyer TM tried everyone , you cannot blame TM.

 

What has Gill shown that he needs to given a chance over Iyer who has recently got his chance.You cannot have both Gill and Iyer at 4 & 5.You need a guy who can bowl too.You cannot walk into every match with just five bowlers with one of them being Pandya.

 

So Iyer needs to get his chances atleast now.Gill will get his chances in odis too as India will play so many odis and Kohli will take his breaks.Lets us find out about Iyer first.

[express bowling]

19 minutes ago, putrevus said:

We are in soup because there were no viable candidates , Iyer I also thought had lot of weaknesses but he showed something, he should have been given more chances.Other than Iyer TM tried everyone , you cannot blame TM.

 

What has Gill shown that he needs to given a chance over Iyer who has recently got his chance.You cannot have both Gill and Iyer at 4 & 5.You need a guy who can bowl too.You cannot walk into every match with just five bowlers with one of them being Pandya.

 

So Iyer needs to get his chances atleast now.Gill will get his chances in odis too as India will play so many odis and Kohli will take his breaks.Lets us find out about Iyer first.

 

TM should have given chances to Iyer way before the World Cup.

 

When he was dropped in 2018, he was averaging 43+ with a SR of 100+ in ODIs. You don't drop such a player unless you have some ready candidate, and we had none.

 

As of today, I want Iyer to bat at 5 and Gill at 4.

 

Iyer is the perfect No.5.

 

 

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

TM should have given chances to Iyer way before the World Cup.

 

When he was dropped in 2018, he was averaging 43+ with a SR of 100+ in ODIs. You don't drop such a player unless you have some ready candidate, and we had none.

 

As of today, I want Iyer to bat at 5 and Gill at 4.

 

Iyer is the perfect No.5.

 

 

They sure should have given him more chances.That is the big blunder by TM .Who knows we would have known all about Iyer by now.DK should have never played world cup. DK is the worst headcase I have seen in Indian cricket.I think everyone including DK knew he would flop in that semis.

You need a batsman who can bowl in top five, you cannot sustain with just five bowlers.Both of them will not fit IMO.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Anmolpreet ----

-- Does not play the ball under his eyes a bit too often. Plays away from the body regularly.

-- Does not have enough time to play quick bowlers.

-- Weak against the short ball.

-- Not clear about where his off stump is.

But he is young and  these shortcomings may improve significantly in a couple of years if he puts in the effort.

Mayank ----

--  Weak off-stump game

--  Not that good against the short ball.

But is a fighter with hunger for runs.

I don't understand how you can pick out all these faults and then say that Rishabh Pant ticks 5 out of 6 boxes. 
- Pant doesn't play the ball under his eyes either and often plays away from the body regularly.
- Pant is not good against the short ball. What made you think he is?

- Poor off-stump game

Even Sehwag didn't have a good off-stump game. He was bowled many times top of off stump or caught edging to the keeper. He also had no front foot movement and was known to not be good against the bouncer.

Either you have selective memory or you're trying to modify the facts just to prove your point.

[prudent_kreeda]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Personally, all I am expecting from Gill is to gather international experience at a time when there are no big ODI tournaments.

 

And I want him to get experience because he looks like a solid good long-term and mid-term prospect. 

 

That's it.

 

I don't expect any newcomer to be a Bradman.  Newcomers may not even do that well. Applies to everyone new.

 

All I want the selectors to do is to give the right people chances instead of the Rayudus and Karthicks. And this is the purpose of this thread.  They may either succeed or fail ... and that is how it will always work.

 

 

       We should be conservative in our expectations . I have a fear he may not be that consistent  at the top in tests if i see his A

       scores . Either gets  big score or goes early. . 

        Game against  seam/swing  movement  & patience ,ability to stay put against relentless  accurate stuff at pace on or

        around off stump - not  known much

       And if initially scores do not come , he may suffer from low confidence . 

        And if Shaw who already played as  opener comes back , will Gill get opener slot? 

       There are 2 ways he should be eased into Tests before making him an opener in Overseas tests :-  

        1.  Play in the middle order -(may not happen quickly as both Rahane & Vihari have scored. )

         2. Play as opener in India before overseas tour. 

 

         If Test place does not open up , should be given some game time at least in  50 overs as opener as both Dhawan & Rohit need not play every   game in meaningless bi laterals.  Am sure  he can do well in 50 overs .  Confidence of that  can help in getting ready for Test opening slot. 

         Kid needs to be in  the scheme of things and should get some international exposure at top level. Some weakness will come to the fore early in career which will help in making him a better batter when those are rectified . 

       

        Me thinks  his performance will  be 

         50 Overs opener > Test MO > 50 Over M O (mainly due to much less balls faced and match situation dictating 

       boom boom or bust play) > Test opener ( esp. overseas matches) at least in first 12-18 months .

 

 

 

              

      

       

 

  

Edited September 13, 2019 by prudent_kreeda

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

As of today, I want Iyer to bat at 5 and Gill at 4.

Iyer is the perfect No.5.

4 Iyer

5 Pandya/Dube

6 Dube/Pandya

7 Pant

 

Pandya deserves to be tried higher up the order after the World Cup.

[prudent_kreeda]

13 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

I don't understand how you can pick out all these faults and then say that Rishabh Pant ticks 5 out of 6 boxes. 
- Pant doesn't play the ball under his eyes either and often plays away from the body regularly.
- Pant is not good against the short ball. What made you think he is?

- Poor off-stump game

Even Sehwag didn't have a good off-stump game. He was bowled many times top of off stump or caught edging to the keeper. He also had no front foot movement and was known to not be good against the bouncer.

Either you have selective memory or you're trying to modify the facts just to prove your point.

         Sehwag was a hand eye co ordination player . Never moved much vs pace . But had the uncanny ability to hit boundaries to stock balls which  others would defend.  

         If its good length/ back of the length ball on off stump , he would force it off  through cover even if it was on middle /off  stump.

         If its short of length , he would cut it fiercely through point .

         If it is aimed at body , he would use upper cuts .

         He did not play attacking shots vs bouncer but had a game to survive bouncers . Either he will duck or if its at rib cage  he would tickle it for a  single . 

        Against spin was a beast. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by prudent_kreeda

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

11 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

Sehwag was a hand eye co ordination player . Never moved much vs pace . But had the uncanny ability to hit boundaries to stock balls which  others would defend. 

I know he did. Just that express bowling was saying you judge how good a batsman is by his front foot movement. If they picked batsmen based on their front foot movement, Sehwag wouldn't be picked in the squad, let alone given the chance to open the innings.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

4 Iyer

5 Pandya/Dube

6 Dube/Pandya

7 Pant

 

Pandya deserves to be tried higher up the order after the World Cup.

 

And God save us if we lose 2 or 3 quick wickets with that 4 to 7.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, prudent_kreeda said:

         Sehwag was a hand eye co ordination player . Never moved much vs pace . But had the uncanny ability to hit boundaries to stock balls which  others would defend.  

         If its good length/ back of the length ball on off stump , he would force it off  through cover even if it was on middle /off  stump.

         If its short of length , he would cut it fiercely through point .

         If it is aimed at body , he would use upper cuts .

         He did not play attacking shots vs bouncer but had a game to survive bouncers . Either he will duck or if its at rib cage  he would tickle it for a  single . 

        Against spin was a beast. 

 

Very well put.

 

And he could play genuine pace too.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

I don't understand how you can pick out all these faults and then say that Rishabh Pant ticks 5 out of 6 boxes. 
- Pant doesn't play the ball under his eyes either and often plays away from the body regularly.
- Pant is not good against the short ball. What made you think he is?

- Poor off-stump game

 

And maybe you have watched Pant bat only in the T20s or the last 10 overs of ODIs.

 

Playing some loose shots outside the off-stump and hence not having a very tight off-stump game, is the only box he does not tick from my list.

 

He is rarely troubled by the short ball in test matches. And very often plays amazing cuts and pulls. 

 

In test matches, he plays the ball under his eyes on most occasions.

 

Apart from the weak-ish off-stump game the only major weakness he has is playing some unnecessary hoicks and lofted shots while batting solidly. And that is more of a mind-frame issue.

 

 

Quote

Even Sehwag didn't have a good off-stump game. He was bowled many times top of off stump or caught edging to the keeper. He also had no front foot movement and was known to not be good against the bouncer.

 

All batsmen get out eventually in most innings.  @prudent_kreeda  has described Sehwag's game rather well.

 

Quote

Either you have selective memory or you're trying to modify the facts just to prove your point.

 

I get the feeling that you are unable to demarcate between effectiveness and classical batsmanship.

 

No matter how ugly or silly a batter or bowler looks, I look for effectiveness against international level players.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

4 Iyer

5 Pandya/Dube

6 Dube/Pandya

7 Pant

 

Pandya deserves to be tried higher up the order after the World Cup.

7 is to low for Pant, he is a player of yuvraj singh calibre who himself came in to his own when he started batting up the order. 

 

At 6 we need to give jadeja a go......i knw he has been a fraud for years but he looks to have improved his batting but he is best used up coz his game is not meant for number 7 slot. 

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

And God save us if we lose 2 or 3 quick wickets with that 4 to 7.

Iyer is a bad No. 4?

 

He's done enough to be given a run at that spot. Pandya showed promise when promoted up the order in the World Cup and Dube is showing promise as a middle order bat. He's showing the ability to finish games and give the innings the impetus it needs in the death overs. Also gives a left-handed option in the middle. Not to mention can bowl a couple of overs if needed which can get better.

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

29 minutes ago, express bowling said:

And maybe you have watched Pant bat only in the T20s or the last 10 overs of ODIs.

Playing some loose shots outside the off-stump and hence not having a very tight off-stump game, is the only box he does not tick from my list.

He is rarely troubled by the short ball in test matches. And very often plays amazing cuts and pulls. 

In test matches, he plays the ball under his eyes on most occasions.

You keep talking about Test matches when the discussion was about ODIs. In Test matches, Anmolpreet, Ruturaj and Mayank would play accordingly.

32 minutes ago, express bowling said:

All batsmen get out eventually in most innings.  @prudent_kreeda  has described Sehwag's game rather well.

Same with Anmolpreet, Ruturaj and Mayank. They've found a way to score big runs despite the chinks in their armor.

34 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I get the feeling that you are unable to demarcate between effectiveness and classical batsmanship.

No matter how ugly or silly a batter or bowler looks, I look for effectiveness against international level players.

I was not the one who brought up front foot movement, back foot movement, how close to the body they're playing etc. to judge how good a player could be. That's what my point is. It doesn't matter how his feet movement are if he's found a way to score runs even with it and got upto this level.

[express bowling]

18 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

You keep talking about Test matches when the discussion was about ODIs. In Test matches, Anmolpreet, Ruturaj and Mayank would play accordingly.

Same with Anmolpreet, Ruturaj and Mayank. They've found a way to score big runs despite the chinks in their armor.

I was not the one who brought up front foot movement, back foot movement, how close to the body they're playing etc. to judge how good a player could be. That's what my point is. It doesn't matter how his feet movement are if he's found a way to score runs even with it and got upto this level.

 

You are not getting my point.  

 

An effective top order batsman at international level may not have good footwork or good classical technique and still do well if he has good hand-eye coordination.

 

But the successful ones still get a lot of time to play genuine quick bowlers ...  play most balls under their eyes ... find a way to tackle short balls and end up having an effective back foot game ... know where their off stump is ... are invariably good stroke players if their technique is poor etc.

 

If a batsman can't tackle quick bowlers or has little idea where his off stump is or is very susceptible to short balls etc. he wiill never do well in international cricket till the time he rectified these weaknesses.

 

Scoring tons of runs in domestic cricket or pre-international level, by itself, does not guarantee the ability to tackle international bowlers.

 

 

P.s -- This " debate " has gone on for too long. I have said all I had to say. Repeating the same things won't serve any purpose. You are obviously free to disagree. No point in continuing it further.

Edited September 14, 2019 by express bowling

[putrevus]

20 hours ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

4 Iyer

5 Pandya/Dube

6 Dube/Pandya

7 Pant

 

Pandya deserves to be tried higher up the order after the World Cup.

Actually that would not be a bad idea, but one of them Dubey or Pandya have to improve their batting .

[Vilander]

will he get anywhere near playing 11 ?

[express bowling]

2nd Unofficial Test vs SA-A

 

Shubman Gill scores 92 off just 137 balls with 12 fours and a 6.

 

Against the bowling attack of Philander, Ngidi and Piedt.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

N he ll warm bench for a guy who is getting place just to try to fit him somewhere when he has failed everywhere else......Our TM for u 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[bahubali]

And chutiya MSK has already announced that he wants to give long rope to Sharma. I mean these idiots announced long rope for grown ups like dhoni and Rohit but for youngsters they have only humiliation and disrespect forget about any rope.