Indian Military Thread

[sandeep]

On 12/18/2019 at 7:43 AM, FischerTal said:

interesting point made by Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Foreign Minister of Pakistan. India has partially removed fencing in a few places across LoC. seems like General Rawat's plan of salami slicing is coming to fruition.

Good move.  IA should pick and choose locations where terrain is in its favor.  For too long they've been playing only defense along LoC.  

[Straight Drive]

Few months away from Rafale being delivered.

 

Would like if Indian military gets timely delivery of other weapons rather than waiting for a long long time on "Made in India" warfare. Better to go for trusted companies which can deliver the crucial weapons in a timely fashion. The contract of basic things used by military can be continued to be given to Indian companies though.

[diga]

 

[FischerTal]

 

[sohail157]

everything according to plan

[Muloghonto]

On 1/15/2020 at 11:47 AM, FischerTal said:

 

Efficiencies of scale matter. China is building a destroyer every 2 months I think. It also has the vast raw materials infrastructure present on epic scale.

 

we don’t. So for us a lot of the overhead cost gets divided into smaller units and thus costs per item goes up ( ie, if it costs 1 billion to set up fabrication facility for a destroyer, China orders 50 and so each destroyer has a +20 million price tag. India orders 10 and has a + 100 million price tag).

 

This is sort of the same reason why per unit price of a much more advanced F35 is lower than that of a Rafale( F35 costs 90-110 million per aircraft, Rafale costs 110-200 million). Coz LM gets to distribute overhead cost into 3000 F35s ordered while Dassault gets to distribute it over 250 jets....

[FischerTal]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Efficiencies of scale matter. China is building a destroyer every 2 months I think. It also has the vast raw materials infrastructure present on epic scale.

 

we don’t. So for us a lot of the overhead cost gets divided into smaller units and thus costs per item goes up ( ie, if it costs 1 billion to set up fabrication facility for a destroyer, China orders 50 and so each destroyer has a +20 million price tag. India orders 10 and has a + 100 million price tag).

 

This is sort of the same reason why per unit price of a much more advanced F35 is lower than that of a Rafale( F35 costs 90-110 million per aircraft, Rafale costs 110-200 million). Coz LM gets to distribute overhead cost into 3000 F35s ordered while Dassault gets to distribute it over 250 jets....

I don't disagree with what you are saying but this is India's problem. always one step behind the curve. Rafales were supposed to be inked in 2011, now India will receive Rafales in 2021 when world has already moved on to 5th generation fighters.

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

I don't disagree with what you are saying but this is India's problem. always one step behind the curve. Rafales were supposed to be inked in 2011, now India will receive Rafales in 2021 when world has already moved on to 5th generation fighters.

Well we already have received 3, 15 more will come this year. Rafales are fine for India for the foreseeable future : it can massively outclass F16s and JF-17s and is equal to any Chinese aircraft not named J-20. But the J20 is underpowered and is definitely not going to be based in Tibet so, it has a huge handicap in entering our airspace.

Our current problem is falling numbers, not quality. 

[FischerTal]

29 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Well we already have received 3, 15 more will come this year. Rafales are fine for India for the foreseeable future : it can massively outclass F16s and JF-17s and is equal to any Chinese aircraft not named J-20. But the J20 is underpowered and is definitely not going to be based in Tibet so, it has a huge handicap in entering our airspace.

Our current problem is falling numbers, not quality. 

83 LCA Mk1A contract will be signed shortly to replace the Mig 21s being decommissioned , but my big worry is what about the remaining 90 aircraft that were supposed to be bought in MMRCA contest? I hope a follow-up Rafale contract is signed soon.

Edited January 18, 2020 by FischerTal

[G_B_]

5 hours ago, FischerTal said:

83 LCA Mk1A contract will be signed shortly to replace the Mig 21s being decommissioned , but my big worry is what about the remaining 90 aircraft that were supposed to be bought in MMRCA contest? I hope a follow-up Rafale contract is signed soon.

I feel they will bump up mki numbers to 400 with super sukhoi config to make shortfall 

 

HAL needs some work

[G_B_]

On 1/15/2020 at 7:47 PM, FischerTal said:

 

I assume he means the t55 of royal navy?

[G_B_]

And building on that me thinks 36 more rafale and 72 more mki will be new orders 

 

Eventually you will see around 400 mki and 72 rafale alongside some 100 versions of lca by 2030 in indian airforce. 

 

Beyond 2030 india will emerge as a secondary rafale market buying from middle eastern abd french air force. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, G_B_ said:

And building on that me thinks 36 more rafale and 72 more mki will be new orders 

 

Eventually you will see around 400 mki and 72 rafale alongside some 100 versions of lca by 2030 in indian airforce. 

 

Beyond 2030 india will emerge as a secondary rafale market buying from middle eastern abd french air force. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

India is not getting any more Su-30s after the 278 are delivered. We will receive about 36 more. IAF does not want any more Su-30s, since it’s a heavy fighter that costs a lot more to fly ( 2 seater vs 1 seater) and IAF feels its need for heavy fighters is satisfied.

 

currently IAF wants medium to light class fighters- something that is small and cheap and can act as point defense air superiority fighter, meaning it doesn’t need long range. This is where the Rafale and the Tejas come in. 

 

India paid 200 million per Rafale for 36 of them- about 3 billion of that was for one time India specific enhancement development and research ( such as takeoff from high altitude like Leh, enhanced radar, OBOGS, gps navigation for Indian air space etc). This means the next lot will be about 40% cheaper and India is likely to get at least another 36 once this order is completed in early 2022.

 

the rest will be done by Tejas mk1a and mk2. 

 

Oh we are also getting 25 MiG-29s this year- these are sitting in Russian hangers as brand new but undeployed due to their budget cuts and apparently we pay only 20 million per aircraft.

 

[Muloghonto]

The major problem with the IAF is that it has a complete end user customer mentality and always wants the absolute best thing on the market. Problem with this is, we will never get a domestic industry if we don’t go through the growing pains. Nobody ever puts out a world beater engine at first try, they go through decades of iteration and production line upgrades. 

The Chinese have realized that there are no shortcuts to engine development amen have bitten the bullet. Their WS series is underpowered compared to the Klimovs and AL-31 derivates but they are sticking with it. This is why J-20 is underpowered.

 

But IAF did not learn its lessons from the Kaveri fiasco. Now it wants a 120 KN engine for its AMCA project in the F414/RD-33 weight class. Which means IAF requirement is for a 40% higher performance on the absolute best middle weight engine on the planet- the F414. 

 

The babus need to be firm with IAF or else we will forever be a third rate Air Force dependent on imports.

[FischerTal]

11 hours ago, G_B_ said:

I assume he means the t55 of royal navy?

I think he means type 055 of the PLAN

 

11 hours ago, G_B_ said:

I feel they will bump up mki numbers to 400 with super sukhoi config to make shortfall 

 

HAL needs some work

but Sukhoi is an air superiority fighter, whereas requirement is for a multirole combat fighter.

[FischerTal]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

India is not getting any more Su-30s after the 278 are delivered. We will receive about 36 more. IAF does not want any more Su-30s, since it’s a heavy fighter that costs a lot more to fly ( 2 seater vs 1 seater) and IAF feels its need for heavy fighters is satisfied.

 

currently IAF wants medium to light class fighters- something that is small and cheap and can act as point defense air superiority fighter, meaning it doesn’t need long range. This is where the Rafale and the Tejas come in. 

 

India paid 200 million per Rafale for 36 of them- about 3 billion of that was for one time India specific enhancement development and research ( such as takeoff from high altitude like Leh, enhanced radar, OBOGS, gps navigation for Indian air space etc). This means the next lot will be about 40% cheaper and India is likely to get at least another 36 once this order is completed in early 2022.

 

the rest will be done by Tejas mk1a and mk2. 

 

Oh we are also getting 25 MiG-29s this year- these are sitting in Russian hangers as brand new but undeployed due to their budget cuts and apparently we pay only 20 million per aircraft.

 

Cuts in defence budget are aimed primarily at making IAF and IA have no choice but to invest in indigenous platforms.

 

besides fighters, IAF is also going to have to focus on filling in the AD gaps on the IB. one of the reasons Pakistanis were able to mount a response in Rajouri was due to inadequate AD coverage there. Im hopeful of QR-SAM, which is both cheap and also ready for induction soon. 

 

with regards to AWACS, I have no hopes. IAF is still not putting its full thrust behind Netra. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by FischerTal

[FischerTal]

 

[Vilander]

On 1/18/2020 at 3:52 AM, FischerTal said:

83 LCA Mk1A contract will be signed shortly to replace the Mig 21s being decommissioned , but my big worry is what about the remaining 90 aircraft that were supposed to be bought in MMRCA contest? I hope a follow-up Rafale contract is signed soon.

there is 21 mig 29s ( directly from Russia) and 18 more su30mkis ( followup from HAL) contract on the way. Rest is up in the air --> looks like they are filling HAL nashik for a year --> question is what is coming after that. May be MK1A. MK2,ORCA,TEDBF etc are on paper still. More rafales looks the soon to be reality. 

[FischerTal]

 

[FischerTal]

 a bad deal, but one needed to keep Trump happy. I would rather have signed the 24 Sikorsky helis for the Navy though.