Alam_dar Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 2 hours ago, maniac said: 1.9 million people out of a 1.3 billion population is like a drop in the ocean. I would be really happy if that was an accurate number that more than a billion people have ids. So what’s the problem here? This 1.9 million figure is not out of 1.3 billion population of India, but only out of 30 million population of Asam only. And as I already said, justice is this that not even a single citizen could be deprived of his equal rights, what then to talk about punishing millions of people. 12 minutes ago, maniac said: If there is a person with 0 documentation how can one determine if they are Hindu or Muslim? I don't know the details, but during NRC they have already achieved this task. According to results, there are half a million Muslims without papers, while others are Hindus. 3 hours ago, maniac said: And yes if these so called “poor people” don’t have a proper documentation under any functioning government they will detain them and not give them the benefit of the doubt and leave them be. They will have to investigate who that person is and how they are living without any valid documents. They will have to detain them. State of India could only punish them if state has already issued them the legal document and they were found of forgery of making false documents. But if it is the State of India which issued the legal documents to the illegal people too, and thus the mistake lies by the state, then in this case state has no right to punish the innocent people. 3 hours ago, maniac said: That’s basic common sense and how most advanced countries work. Unfortunately it is absolutely not how the modern civilised countries work. In all modern civilised countries you could not punish any individual for the crime he didn't commit. In all modern civilised countries, laws are made from this basic perspective that if an illegal person gets free of his crime, then it is not such a big issue as compared to this scenario when an innocent person is punished unjustly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 Just now, Alam_dar said: This 1.9 million figure is not out of 1.3 billion population of India, but only out of 30 million population of Asam only. And as I already said, justice is this that not even a single citizen could be deprived of his equal rights, what then to talk about punishing millions of people. I don't know the details, but during NRC they have already achieved this task. According to results, there are half a million Muslims without papers, while others are Hindus. State of India could only punish them if state has already issued them the legal document and they were found of forgery of making false documents. But if it is the State of India which issued the legal documents to the illegal people too, and thus the mistake lies by the state, then in this case state has no right to punish the innocent people. Unfortunately it is absolutely not how the modern civilised countries work. In all modern civilised countries you could not punish any individual for the crime he didn't commit. In all modern civilised countries, laws are made from this basic perspective that if an illegal person gets free of his crime, then it is not such a big issue as compared to this scenario when an innocent person is punished unjustly. We are going in circles. Crossing the border illegally or entering the country illegal is a crime. There is no innocence attached here, it’s an act of willful violation of rules. However Hindus and other minorities can claim persecution which is a fact that you yourself have attested many times that it happens in those countries on a daily basis . So if they are given citizenship under humanitarian grounds what is wrong? Now if a Muslim guy crosses The border or enters illegally, sure all of them may not be terrorists or criminals but just here to earn a living in India but at the end of the day it is a crime. It is illegal immigration and that would mean they would be taking the rights of existing citizens. How complicated is this to understand? someone, raki05 and LordPrabhzy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 3 hours ago, maniac said: Yes state of India as you say till date was not organized and didn’t care much for documentation. They are fixing that mistake today and correcting it. So what’s the argument here again? My honest opinion is this that it is already too "late" for the State of India to fix it's bundles of mistakes which it committed during the last 70 years of independent India. There is hardly any possibility left to determine with certainty who came to India from Bangladesh as illegal migrant in 1971. Their next two or three generations have been born and raised in India since then. Today, NRC has become only a political tool against the Muslim community. It is like the story of that blood thirsty wolf who wanted to eat the baby lamb at any cost, and thus came up with lame excuses that baby lamb made his water dirty (although the water flow from wolf towards the baby lamb), and then wolf came up with the allegation of baby lamb making his drinking water dirty last year (although baby lamb was not one year old). And at last wolf claimed that it was the mother of the baby lame who made his drinking water dirty last year. After making this last allegation, the wolf killed the baby lamb and ate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, maniac said: We are going in circles. Crossing the border illegally or entering the country illegal is a crime. There is no innocence attached here, it’s an act of willful violation of rules. However Hindus and other minorities can claim persecution which is a fact that you yourself have attested many times that it happens in those countries on a daily basis . So if they are given citizenship under humanitarian grounds what is wrong? I am all for giving citizenship to these Mazloom minorities of Pakistan. I have seen myself how they are hated by the religious people. I have seen how Mullahs their followers that it is Halal (rather "obligatory") in Islam to "discriminate" and "humiliate" the non-Muslims to such level where they accept Islam under compulsion. Quote Now if a Muslim guy crosses The border or enters illegally, sure all of them may not be terrorists or criminals but just here to earn a living in India but at the end of the day it is a crime. It is illegal immigration and that would mean they would be taking the rights of existing citizens. How complicated is this to understand? Yes please, if any illegal Muslim crosses the border, then please do punish him for his crime at the exact right time. But if State is trying to fix it after 70 years by punishing the innocent ones too, then it is not a wise thing to do. I am afraid that it is too late for NRC. In my opinion (if State of India is really seeking the Justice), then it has to end the practice of NRC and concentrate upon CAA and act upon it as soon as possible. All opposition to CAA will end automatically as soon as the issue of NRC is solved. Edited March 13, 2020 by Alam_dar Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Alam_dar said: My honest opinion is this that it is already too "late" for the State of India to fix it's bundles of mistakes which it committed during the last 70 years of independent India. There is hardly any possibility left to determine with certainty who came to India from Bangladesh as illegal migrant in 1971. Their next two or three generations have been born and raised in India since then. I'm glad the government doesnt think like you. we need optimists and problem solvers, not apologists for failures. and thats what you - and the entire anti-CAA NRC crowd - represent. india NEEDS to clearly define criteria for its citizenship - as any independent country does. it also NEEDS to identify citizens in order to provide welfare - as any independent country does. any opposition to this, cannot be construed as anything other than an attack on india's sovreignty. raki05 and someone 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: I'm glad the government doesnt think like you. we need optimists and problem solvers, not apologists for failures. and thats what you - and the entire anti-CAA NRC crowd - represent. india NEEDS to clearly define criteria for its citizenship - as any independent country does. it also NEEDS to identify citizens in order to provide welfare - as any independent country does. any opposition to this, cannot be construed as anything other than an attack on india's sovreignty. Please don't come to wrong conclusions about the other side. They are neither against NRC nor against taking actions against the illegal immigrants. If State of India could separate the illegal ones from the real citizens, then NRC is totally welcome. The sovereignty/rights of a CITIZEN is more valuable than any sovereignty of any state. And in fact the sovereignty of State is absolutely not at stake in this case. Giving legal documents to those whose forefathers came as illegal immigrants is absolutely not equal to breaking India. Many modern civilised countries have gone through this process. As compared to the Indian State, the sovereignty/rights of individual citizens is completely at stake, while they are going to loose their citizenship and rights. Edited March 13, 2020 by Alam_dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Please don't come to wrong conclusions about the other side. They are neither against NRC nor against taking actions against the illegal immigrants. If State of India could separate the illegal ones from the real citizens, then NRC is totally welcome. The sovereignty of a CITIZEN is more valuable than any sovereignty of any state. And in fact the sovereignty of State is absolutely not at stake in this case. Giving legal documents to those whose forefathers came as illegal immigrants is absolutely not equal to breaking India. Many modern civilised countries have gone through this process. As compared to the Indian State, the sovereignty of individual citizens is completely at stake, while they are going to loose their citizenship and rights. bhai mere.....the sovereignty of a CITIZEN IS PROTECTED BY THE STATE. i'm not sure even you know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 @Alam_dar maybe this is a solution for the problems you're discussing? raki05 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 12 hours ago, Manny_Pacquiao said: @Alam_dar maybe this is a solution for the problems you're discussing? Imposition of Ghar Wapsi under the pressure of NRC ????? Is it really a solution in your opinion? Imposition of Ghar Wapsi is "blackmailing". And protests in India by Secularists are taking place exactly due to this right wing mentality of "blackmailing" in name of NRC and CAA. Surendra Swami Sahib is only confirming this real "hidden intention" of BJP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPrabhzy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Alam_dar said: Imposition of Ghar Wapsi under the pressure of NRC ????? Is it really a solution in your opinion? Imposition of Ghar Wapsi is "blackmailing". And protests in India by Secularists are taking place exactly due to this right wing mentality of "blackmailing" in name of NRC and CAA. Surendra Swami Sahib is only confirming this real "hidden intention" of BJP. Clearly understanding sarcasm is not your strong points. diga, Manny_Pacquiao and rahulrulezz 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said: Clearly understanding sarcasm is not your strong points. Thanks. I thought that this Surendra Swami Sahib belongs to BJP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPrabhzy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Thanks. I thought that this Surendra Swami Sahib belongs to BJP. I didn’t realise the right to a sense of sarcasm automatically stopped if you are a member of the BJP? Laaloo, diga and sergio04 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said: I didn’t realise the right to a sense of sarcasm automatically stopped if you are a member of the BJP? Yaar, why are they all so scared of BJP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 33 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said: I didn’t realise the right to a sense of sarcasm automatically stopped if you are a member of the BJP? While unfortunately due to the circumstances, we really believe this to not only be the sarcasm but also to be the "very real hidden intention" of BJP. If it is not the hidden intention, then all is ok and I welcome BJP, while if it is really the hidden intention of BJP, then it is a shameful act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny_Pacquiao Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: While unfortunately due to the circumstances, we really believe this to not only be the sarcasm but also to be the "very real hidden intention" of BJP. If it is not the hidden intention, then all is ok and I welcome BJP, while if it is really the hidden intention of BJP, then it is a shameful act. Wow, thanks for exposing the BJP's "hidden intentions" !!! You're a genius. Laaloo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someone Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Alam_dar said: While unfortunately due to the circumstances, we really believe this to not only be the sarcasm but also to be the "very real hidden intention" of BJP. If it is not the hidden intention, then all is ok and I welcome BJP, while if it is really the hidden intention of BJP, then it is a shameful act. When it is dark, do you also think there is some hidden intention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPrabhzy Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Alam_dar said: While unfortunately due to the circumstances, we really believe this to not only be the sarcasm but also to be the "very real hidden intention" of BJP. If it is not the hidden intention, then all is ok and I welcome BJP, while if it is really the hidden intention of BJP, then it is a shameful act. can you prove otherwise without concrete evidence and intensive research on the GOI's policies that may happen in the future..? Im surprised they have shared them with a Pakistani citizen and not the indian public they effect. There is a distinction between a Gov and a party.. Yes the current Gov may be formed by a majority of BJP MPs but their first duty is to the citizens of India and not the party. Even in the UK the current Gov is Tory but what a rebel Tory MP might say has no bearing on the Gov, they can simply chose to ignore it as they are not responsible for every opinion of every MP. The Indian Gov is head of the world's biggest democracy.. so they simply cannot bring in measures which you are referring to.. PM Modi definitely has more brain cells than the avg Pakistani to make a silly mistake like this. So before you come here and make clear your anti BJP agenda please actually think logically of what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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