Escalation at India-China border

[sandeep]

16 hours ago, G_B_ said:

I dont think india registers too highly in the Chinese psyche. The chinese students i talked to did not even know there was a war with india (or vietnam). They did not care too much.

 

 

That is by design.  The CCP knows that if it starts drumming up nationalist sentiment about the border confrontation, then it has to show its folks that it "won" the standoff.  Which, given the geography, and the capacities of the adversary, is far from assured.  That is why they are suppressing information domestically, and ensuring that its plebs do not pay too much attention.  

[sandeep]

21 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Okay.

 

I had data on tourism somewhere will find that for you because domestic tourism also increased alot after terror situation was diminished. 

 

Why don't you in meanwhile come up with some data explaining for the loans taken for developing infrastructure (from china) as part of pakistan's total debt structure as well as some figures over cost of capital. 

 

 

Quote

The government loans of $5.9 billion have been signed at an interest rate ranging from 2% to as high as 5.2%. There are three government loans totaling $774 million that have been obtained at 5.2% rate.

The commercial loans for setting up power plants have been arranged at an interest rate of London Interbank Offered (Libor) plus 4.5%. However, it is the return on equity, which in some cases is as high as 34.2%, that will cause outflow of $11.3 billion.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1874661/2-pakistan-pay-china-40-billion-20-years

 

 

Do you know what interest rate India got from Japan, for infrastructure projects? 0.1%  When a foreign government "gives" loans to another, especially in exchange for their own companies getting paid from that loan, the interest rates are usually close to zero.  Because the loan-giver recognizes that almost all of that money is being used to pay their own companies.  But in Pakistan's case, your leaders sold you out, and are happily mortgaging your country's future for bribes worth few pennies, and just so that the delusional hatred of India can be perpetuated with Chinese assistance.  

 

Banjo, what a sweet, sweet deal the Chinese are getting.  Libor + 5% interest rate - pure profit.  On top of that, almost all "contracts" will go to Chinese companies.  More profit.  Plus RoE is locked in, in certain cases, indepedent of Pakistani rupee value, i.e. at fixed FE rates.  

 

This is basically colonization without ever having to bother with conquering.  Let the Pakistani fake jernails do the dirty job of oppressing their own people. China can keep talking "Iron brother" bullsh** and keep raking in the money.

 

You morons are being used, abused, milked and looted.  Every day, and will be for the next few decades, thanks to the horrible decisions made by your military oppressors, and their civilian politician collaborators.  Btw, that includes the cheats of PML(N), not just the PTI that you have such distaste for.   Your leaders have sold out the future of your children, and maybe even grandchildren, for pennies.

Edited July 6, 2020 by sandeep

[Clarke]

 

The Nimitz Carrier Strike Force composed of the USS Nimitz and USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Groups conduct dual carrier operations in the South China Sea on Monday.

 

the weekend's deployment of the two carriers, each of which support 60-plus aircraft, as well as accompanying guided-missile cruisers and destroyers, appears to be a clear statement that Washington is not about to cede any influence in the region to Beijing.

 

It is the first time two US carriers have operated together in the South China Sea since 2014 and only the second time since 2001, according to Lt. Cmdr. Sean Brophy, a spokesperson aboard the Reagan.

 

 

 

 

 

Even in Trumpian times, America projects a lot of power thousands of miles away.  Wonder if this in any way contributed to the Chinese backing off, not wanting to bite off more than they could chew currently. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Clarke

[G_B_]

Speaking of American carriers. Its interesting to know that we have finally finished our dry docks at Mumbai for a 80k tonne ship.

 

Might be a good deal in the making for a used American aircraft carrier. We were badly hurt by the Russian purchase. 

[mishra]

2 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

The Nimitz Carrier Strike Force composed of the USS Nimitz and USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Groups conduct dual carrier operations in the South China Sea on Monday.

 

the weekend's deployment of the two carriers, each of which support 60-plus aircraft, as well as accompanying guided-missile cruisers and destroyers, appears to be a clear statement that Washington is not about to cede any influence in the region to Beijing.

 

It is the first time two US carriers have operated together in the South China Sea since 2014 and only the second time since 2001, according to Lt. Cmdr. Sean Brophy, a spokesperson aboard the Reagan.

 

 

 

 

 

Even in Trumpian times, America projects a lot of power thousands of miles away.  Wonder if this in any way contributed to the Chinese backing off, not wanting to bite off more than they could chew currently. 

See, For Pakistan, its religion, For China, Its business, For India its fsovereignty. All three have diffeng interest in that zone. IMO, ours is most pressing and legitimate  compared to other two. Hence, other two will time and again, back off, cos they are not ready to take it after a certain level

Edited July 6, 2020 by mishra

[Rasgulla]

 

 

[mishra]

20 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

 

 

Quote

The next salvo in the Chinese deception plans was
beautifully timed and placed. They selected the
disputed Galwan Valley to create the next incident.
Galwan is in Ladakh and was the perfect decoy to
make their point without alerting NEFA. On 10th
July 1962, some 300 Chinese troops surrounded our
Galwan post of about 40 Gorkhas. We ordered the
post to hold fast, and despite Chinese threats of interference,
re-supplied the men but did not attempt to
reinforce them. The Chinese tried every trick short of
a direct assault, to intimidate, cajole and isolate the
post. They made a special effort to suborn the Gorkhas

by broadcasting that Indians and Nepalis were not
friends and that Gorkhas should not fight as mercenaries
for India. The Chinese advanced to within a few yards
of our men in the hope that they would capitulate. -
The Galwan garrison, under a brave Junior
Commissioned Officer, held out. He was decorated
and much was made of the bravery and steadfastness
of the 118 Gorkhas detachment. It is true that our men
behaved gallantly and fearlessly, and they deserved all
the praise heaped on them; but unfortunately Government
and the General Staff drew the wrong lessons.
The Galwan incident was the most explosive
provocation to date. The Chinese showed restraint
when they had us cornered; and their failure to physically
assault the heavily outnumbered post, seemed to
confirm Marshal Chen Yi's assurance. It was the
perfect ruse. Our External Affairs Ministry duly
"warned" the Chinese, since that was about all we
could do. The Chinese did not lift the siege. The
post was overrun in October 1962.
Galwan was undoubtedly part of the overall
Chinese deception plan. It is not clear as to when
they had taken the decision to humiliate us militarily;
perhaps it was after the Dalai Lama's asylum in 1959.
From that time they embarked on a well-thought-out
plan to lull us into believing that whatever turn the
border dispute took, it would never escalate into a
shooting war. They had acted reasonably after the
Khenzemane and Longju incidents in August 1959.
These incidents were followed by the visit of the Chinese
Premier to Delhi in April 1960. He gave the impression
of being reasonable and made reassuring statements.
The officials' talks also helped to calm frayed tempers
generated by the clashes. After every border incident
the Chinese would talk of concessions and the necessity
for moderation and the avoidance of armed clashes.
Sometimes they withdrew after a show of force, and
permitted our post to be re-established.

This pattern of behaviour gave birth to the pernicious
theory that all we had to do was to stand fast
whenever surrounded or threatened by the Chinese;
this theory was the major reason for the headlong dash
tq the Thagla Ridge, the subsequent bravado and the
tactics attempted by Gen. Kaul to "sit" behind

Above is Account from 1962; History is repeating itself. Lets not do a General Kaul and Nehuru again.

Edited July 7, 2020 by mishra

[mishra]

Quote

The Chinese battle preparations were both thorough
and impressive. From my own observations before
the Thagla Battle and my findings subsequently as a
prisoner of war, I was able to gather the following
facts :
(a) The Chinese preparations began in earnest
from May 1962. Prior to this they had infiltrated
agents and had organised informers
from among the Tibetan road gangs working
in NEFA. They knew all our movements
and dispositions.

(b) They moved a famous General of Korea fame,
to command the Chinese Forces in Tibet.

(G) Interpreters in all major Indian languages and
dialects were moved to Lhasa between March
and Mav. Thev were acclimatised and trained
in ~ndiahcu stoA s, atti,tudes and characteristics
of the various classes recruited in the Indian
Army. Some were clearly Indian-born Chinamen'who
had been takkn to China for use
against us. I met some of them, but they
were reluctant to admit that they had even
been to India. The Intelligence set-up was
under an ex-military attache in Delhi.

(d) They moved scores of photographers and
movie-cameramen to Tibet. I saw many in
the Namka Chu Valley before 20th October
and again after I was captured.

(e) They employed hundreds of sturdy Tibetan
ponies for carrying supplies and ammunition.
I myself passed at least 1,500 on my way back
to the Chinese roadhead at Marmang. I was
told that the Chinese had started their breeding
farms as early as 1952, as they did not want to
antagonise the Tibetans who had always
smarted at the feudal system which required
them to provide ponies and their own services
to their landlords, each year.

(f) They had recruited thousands of Tibetan
orters, both men and women. They had
Eeen organised into proper labour battalions.
Later, in the village where I was imprisoned
I saw many wearing odd items of Indian
Army uniform and equipment.
They had established forward dumps at Le,
Marmang and Tsona Dzong. These dumps
were not guarded as the Chinese had immunity
from both ground and air attack. They had
an assured system of carriage and delivery.
The Chinese Commander was master of his
own administration and could base his plans
on realities and actuals. In the mountains,
administration is the critical principle of war;
Dependence on an uncertain source of supply
and vague assurances is disastrous.

(h) The Chinese dumps were well stocked as
September-November are the most advantageous
months to the Chinese. The Tibetan
plateau is dry during the monsoon months of
May to August and the passes from China
are snow-free. The Chinese thus had the
whole of summer for intensive stock-piling
and the concentration of troops.

( i ) They had organised prisoner-of-war camps to
hold 3,000 men. In these they had positioned
blue-padded suits, bedding and essential
clothing. The General Staff is responsible
for forecasting the number of prisoners likely
to be captured, as they are in the best position

to know the scope of battle envisaged. The
size of the camps is a clear indication that they
were anticipating a big war.
(j) They had built a 7-ton road to Marmang,
which was only a few hours from Thanla
Ridge. They had moved at least two divisiks
and 150 artillery pieces to the Thagla area
and opposite Towang.

(k) They had thoroughly indoctrinated their
troops on their version of the border dispute.
They knew what they were fighting for and
the issues for which they had been sent to the
border. Thev were made to believe that India
was bent on rhbbling at Chinese territory and
had to be stopped. Everyone that I met
parroted the same arguments.

(I) They had perfect communications and had
laid telephone lines right up to the border.
They were adept at laying line and were
usually through on the phone within hours
of capturing a position.
(m) They had a unified command and clear
military and political objectives.

These eye-witness observations should silence all
the critics of India who have said that it was India that
started the Sino-Indian War of 1962. The seemingly
minor points which I have enumerated give a more
forceful indication of the thoroughness of the Chinese
preparations and their intentions. The war was not
an accident and was certainly not decided after 8th
September 1962. It was coldly and calculatingly
planned by the Chinese. It is ludicrous to suggest that
India attacked, forcing the Chinese to launch "selfdefence
counter-attacks". When we go through the
Indian state of readiness as on 7th September, it will
be evident that no such possibility was envisaged, let
alone planned for.

 

[G_B_]

3 hours ago, mishra said:

Above is Account from 1962; History is repeating itself. Lets not do a General Kaul and Nehuru again.

How is history repeating itself?

 

We continue to build infra heavily along all our borders.  The airforce has stepped up patrols.

 

See by all means be mindful of the past. But there is something called a representative bias. 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, G_B_ said:

How is history repeating itself?

 

We continue to build infra heavily along all our borders.  The airforce has stepped up patrols.

 

See by all means be mindful of the past. But there is something called a representative bias. 

It started with Galwan. Instead of telling Gorakhas that you are mercenaries, Now Nepal is passiing legislation that India is an aggressor to them.

They decided to keep India guessing then by doing backward forward movement. At the time Nehuru ordered his troupes to be scattered all across border to defend. Toupes had inferior weapon and smaller numbers.

 

Nehuru was building outposts. Soldiers died defending those outposts.

 

Only difference is. Modi says, Indian land has not be annexed. But he talks about pushing back. So, I am not sure how much we are planned for war and diplomacy 

Edited July 7, 2020 by mishra

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, mishra said:

It started with Galwan. Instead of telling Gorakhas that you are mercenaries, Now Nepal is passiing legislation that India is an aggressor to them.

They decided to keep India guessing then by doing backward forward movement. At the time Nehuru ordered his troupes to be scattered all across border to defend. Toupes had inferior weapon and smaller numbers.

 

Nehuru was building outposts. Soldiers died defending those outposts.

 

Only difference is. Modi says, Indian land has not be annexed. But he talks about pushing back. So, I am not sure how much we are planned for war and diplomacy 

I think the govt and IA have handled things reasonably well for now - questions can be asked (later) about why PLA incursions were not detected earlier, but once detected, our response has been good.  Obviously we will not have insight into all details, especially right away.  

 

 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

I think the govt and IA have handled things reasonably well for now - questions can be asked (later) about why PLA incursions were not detected earlier, but once detected, our response has been good.  Obviously we will not have insight into all details, especially right away.  

 

 

Going by accounts, 1962 was nothing but a target practice for Chinese, Their forces were so well equipped and planned  compared to us that its even embarrassing to discuss it here. 

I still feel, they have come with similar intent this time around. 
They won’t retreat unless they estimate that there is a risk that they will be matched. 
 

So, lets wait till Santa drops the present before passibg judgement.

Edited July 7, 2020 by mishra

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, mishra said:

Going by accounts, 1962 was nothing but a target practice for Chinese, Their forces were so well equipped and planned  compared to us that its even embarrassing to discuss it here. 

I still feel, they have come with similar intent this time around. 
They won’t retreat unless they estimate that there is a risk that they will be matched. 
 

So, lets wait till Santa drops the present before passibg judgement.

They probably expected a similar lop-sided situation, and may be successfully deterred, simply with appropriate build-up and deployment of force levels.

 

Agree that its way too early to celebrate.  We don't want a repeat of the Doklam story on the LaC. Can't afford that type of hollow "victory" followed by solid PLA win.

[Vilander]

On 7/6/2020 at 9:18 AM, sandeep said:

China will be leave on their own, because 'winter

I have not claimed that this is an other strawman. Read the context better. My operative point is china will attack india does not need to be the aggressor. I loose interest in your bs.

[sandeep]

  

On 7/4/2020 at 6:25 PM, Vilander said:

Wait till winter china has to attack else they will have to pack their bags and leave. 

 

10 hours ago, Vilander said:

I have not claimed that this is an other strawman. 

 

hmm.  Accha.  Theek hai.

[mishra]

On 7/8/2020 at 3:21 AM, Vilander said:

I have not claimed that this is an other strawman. Read the context better. My operative point is china will attack india does not need to be the aggressor. I loose interest in your bs.

See, we are reminded again and again by Chinese about first Sino Indian war. We blame Kaul and Nehuru. But I started doing my reasearch post Galwan conflict more objectively and reading accounts of everyone including Kaul. I feel that there is massive misgiving about  cause of loss in 1962. Elephant in the room is India's war against Portuguese and its reprecusions. Yes, we had a decisive victory in Goa Daman and Diu. And year was 1961

 

If anyone has any clue how west sides, I think China prepared for 1962 and West sided with them as it was immediate aftermath of 1961. They (West) came together to punish us.

 

Every Pakistani troll needs to be reminded that China tried another war in Sikkim, Nathu La and Cho La. It was decisive one sided Indian victory. If we go by death count, We lost 1383 soldiers in 1962 and they lost 340 soldiers in 1967.  IMO, by 1967, west had forgotten Goa and mooved on. In 2020, China needs to forget Ladakh, Tawang and moove on.  Else whatever economic supremacy they have, war is still faught with bullets.

[G_B_]

On 7/7/2020 at 9:10 PM, mishra said:

Going by accounts, 1962 was nothing but a target practice for Chinese, Their forces were so well equipped and planned  compared to us that its even embarrassing to discuss it here. 

I still feel, they have come with similar intent this time around. 
They won’t retreat unless they estimate that there is a risk that they will be matched. 
 

So, lets wait till Santa drops the present before passibg judgement.

We did not use air power in 1962.

 

We also were poor at logistics.

 

India is rapidly building infra along the borders for the past few years.

 

The atal tunnel shall be open in weeks time. The rail link to leh will be operation in a year.

 

They tried the same **** in 1967. Maybe read what changed in the military from 1962 to 1967....

 

62 war was 80 plus years ago. Technology changes have been massive in this period.

[Vilander]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:00 AM, sandeep said:

  

 

 

hmm.  Accha.  Theek hai.

Wait till winter china has to attack. Did you miss this part totally did you see what i responded to lol? How vain are you man i pity you.