Rahane's future

[maniac]

31 minutes ago, zen said:

Note that being compared with Bradman on playing style and having an output similar is not the same. On skills, there may be even better batsman than Bradman, who is known for his achievements. 

The comparison was between a player head and shoulders above his peers in his generation vs a guy of similar stature in the current generation. It’s not that random.

 

Lara was the closest competitor but he was a left hand bat.

 

The criteria there was from cricketers/ cricket broadcasters who have watched every match as it is part of their profession and bread and butter.

 

I would rate their judgement over massaging stats out of cricinfo.

 

You think big data models only depend on numbers and basic arithmetic, it requires various other intangible variables.

 

Correct me if I am wrong Science nerds but even even the greatest scientific principles rely on uncertainty and other such hypothetical models.

 

Numbers can be used, then given a context. If Stuart Binny has a odi bowling average of 21.00 after 14 matches, should we call him greater than Ambrose and Wasim or should we investigate why he has such a good average?

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Since you're interested in this method of mixing of stats and assumptions - performaces from time when both were active:

1. Against 6 major teams - (Aus, SA, Eng, Ind, Pak, SL, NZ)

Kallis - 46.87

SRT - 50.64

 

2. Against 5 major teams - (Aus, SA, Eng, Ind, SL, Pak)

Kallis - 44.40

SRT - 50.65

 

3. Against 5 major teams - (Aus, SA, Ind, Eng, NZ, SL)

Kallis - 47.73

SRT - 51.48

 

4. Against 5 major teams - (Aus, SA, Ind, Eng, NZ, SL)

Kallis - 45.47

SRT - 51.28

 

5. Against 4 major teams, 3 major teams pick anything you want

 

6. Against top team (Aus)

Kallis - 41.22

SRT - 55.22

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmin1=14+Dec+1995;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

Ok, while you are specific about "time", you are not comparing them as MO batsmen?

 

You want to compare Kallis as the UO + MO batsmen with Tendulkar, who never had it in him to bat in the upper order

 

Using your timeline, my original countries:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

 

 

Not need to say that Kallis has some bowling duties too! 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Ok, while you are specific about "time", you are not comparing them as MO batsmen?

 

You want to compare Kallis as the UO + MO batsmen with Tendulkar, who never had it in him to bat in the upper order

 

Using your timeline, my original countries:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

 

 

Not need to say that Kallis has some bowling duties too! 

 

Kallis faced and scored runs against Tendulkar’s attack and Tendulkar scored a lot of runs vs Kallis bowling attack.

 

What runs are more valuable?

[coffee_rules]

If Aus is considered the top most team when both played, let’s compare only One major team

 

Kallis; 41.22

Tendulkar: 55.54

 

Big difference  

 

/thread

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by coffee_rules

[zen]

11 minutes ago, maniac said:

The comparison was between a player head and shoulders above his peers in his generation vs a guy of similar stature in the current generation. It’s not that random.

 

Lara was the closest competitor but he was a left hand bat.

 

The criteria there was from cricketers/ cricket broadcasters who have watched every match as it is part of their profession and bread and butter.

 

I would rate their judgement over massaging stats out of cricinfo.

 

You think big data models only depend on numbers and basic arithmetic, it requires various other intangible variables.

 

Correct me if I am wrong Science nerds but even even the greatest scientific principles rely on uncertainty and other such hypothetical models.

 

Numbers can be used, then given a context. If Stuart Binny has a odi bowling average of 21.00 after 14 matches, should we call him greater than Ambrose and Wasim or should we investigate why he has such a good average?

 

1st - Tendulkar is not head and shoulders above his peers. As demonstrated, in tests, which is where the discussion is focused, he lags behind 

2nd - The comparison is with his peers, who have proven track records 

 

 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

1st - Tendulkar is not head and shoulders above his peers. As demonstrated, in tests, which is where the discussion is focused, he lags behind 

2nd - The comparison is with his peers, who have proven track records 

 

 

Tendulkar was head and shoulders above others combining odis and tests.

 

This 3 different formats and different skill sets for them is a modern concept.

 

In Tendulkar’s era a batsman was a batsman and was rated accordingly due to his exploits in every game he played. Even his exhibition matches like the ones in Lords was viewed differently than a Tamasha league match these day’s even though they are professional contests.

 

Bradman did not play odis, he was above his peers as a test player.

 

Richards is rated over Gavaskar because of his stellar odi exploits along  with his test record and was the greatest batsman of his generation.

 

Same with Tendulkar who was good at whatever he did and much more useful than Bradman or Richards with his bowling exploits as well.

 

Pull up a list of all the bowlers across tests/odis they played and that should give you your answer.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

Tendulkar was head and shoulders above others combining odis and tests.

 

This 3 different formats and different skill sets for them is a modern concept.

 

In Tendulkar’s era a batsman was a batsman and was rated accordingly due to his exploits in every game he played. Even his exhibition matches like the ones in Lords was viewed differently than a Tamasha league match these day’s even though they are professional contests.

 

Bradman did not play odis, he was above his peers as a test player.

 

Richards is rated over Gavaskar because of his stellar odi exploits along  with his test record and was the greatest batsman of his generation.

 

Same with Tendulkar who was good at whatever he did and much more useful than Bradman or Richards with his bowling exploits as well.

 

Pull up a list of all the bowlers across tests/odis they played and that should give you your answer.

So Tendulkar is better test player than X as he may have a better ODI record for e.g.?

 

I am only focused on Tests. In ODIs, Richards would probably be my first pick. Tendulkar has struggled in KOs many times. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[maniac]

1 minute ago, zen said:

So Tendulkar is better test player than X as he may have a better ODI record for e.g.?

 

I am only focused on Tests. In ODIs, Richards would probably be my first pick. 

 

 

It’s overall stature. It’s the same argument @sandeep has Hardik Pandya is a better white ball bowler than Stokes. Sure but that doesn’t make him a better overall allrounder than him obviously.

[coffee_rules]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Ok, while you are specific about "time", you are not comparing them as MO batsmen?

 

You want to compare Kallis as the UO + MO batsmen with Tendulkar, who never had it in him to bat in the upper order

 

Using your timeline, my original countries:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

 

 

Not need to say that Kallis has some bowling duties too! 

 

 

Gavaskar >>>> Bradman because Bradman never opened!

This MO, UO comparion for ATGs is not logical. 

[Trichromatic]

25 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Ok, while you are specific about "time", you are not comparing them as MO batsmen?

 

You want to compare Kallis as the UO + MO batsmen with Tendulkar, who never had it in him to bat in the upper order

 

Using your timeline, my original countries:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

Incorrect 

 

Kallis - 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

 

 

Not need to say that Kallis has some bowling duties too! 

 

Ok, there you go as MO batsmen - so that you don't feel bad.

 

Teams (Aus, Eng, NZ, SL, Pak)

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.20

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.41

 

Since you don't like SL (Aus, Eng, SL, Pak) - so that you don't feel bad

With timeline 

Kallis - 50.41

SRT - 51.33

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 50.14

SRT - 50.87

 

You want to compare Kallis against India whom SRT never faced with SRT against SA whom Kallis didn't face in tests. 

[zen]

1 minute ago, coffee_rules said:

 

Gavaskar >>>> Bradman because Bradman never opened!

This MO, UO comparion for ATGs is not logical. 

Bradman played in top order. So did likes of Richards, Lara, Kallis, Ponting, and so on. 

 

No one is saying that Tendulkar is not good but he is down in the pecking order in tests among ATG batsmen 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Ok, there you go as MO batsmen.

 

Teams (Aus, Eng, NZ, SL, Pak)

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.20

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.41

 

Since you don't like SL (Aus, Eng, SL, Pak)

With timeline 

Kallis - 50.41

SRT - 51.33

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 50.14

SRT - 50.87

 

I already put the numbers 

 

I see that you want to fight for a team like SL but ignore SA and Ind (for respective players)  

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Bradman played in top order. So did likes of Richards, Lara, Kallis, Ponting, and so on. 

 

No one is saying that Tendulkar is not good but he is down in the pecking order in tests among ATG batsmen 

You can create a thread with that much and if you want I can pin it also.

 

Why go for stats mixed assumptions, random statements and made up stuff to mislead others?

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

I already put the numbers ....

Fixed it for you.

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

I already put the numbers ....

 

I see that you want to fight for a team like SL but ignore SA and Ind (for respective players)

Feel free to add Kallis' record against SA and SRT's record against India also if you have those.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Feel free to add Kallis' record against SA and SRT's record against India if you have those.

i do not know what you are reading as the post you quoted has the details! 

Edited July 23, 2020 by zen

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

i do not know what you are reading as the post you quoted has the details! 

It doesn't. Please read carefully the post you quoted.

 

Moreover I gave details without SL also.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It doesn't. Please read carefully.

From the post:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

Incorrect 

 

Kallis - 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, zen said:

From the post:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

Incorrect 

 

Kallis - 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

Doesn’t that skew your data because Indian and SA attack’s have had  a huge gulf in quality.

[Trichromatic]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

From the post:

 

Kallis: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and Ind (Tendulkar's team)

Tendulkar: Aus, Eng, NZ, Pak, and SA (Kallis' team) 

 

As MO batsmen:

Kallis: 53

Tendulkar: 50 

Incorrect 

 

Kallis - 

With SL added (so you don't feel bad), 

Kallis: 52 

Tendulkar: 51 

 

 

We are talking about MO as SRT didn't play UO. Using similar logic, I am not including SA for SRT as Kallis didn't face SA, and not including Ind for Kallis as SRT didn't face Ind.

 

Comparing same teams and fixing the mistake from your post + giving you timeline free numbers + leverage of not SL despite them being higher rated than other teams during that phase, so that you don't feel bad:

 

17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Ok, there you go as MO batsmen - so that you don't feel bad.

 

Teams (Aus, Eng, NZ, SL, Pak)

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.20

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 49.83

SRT - 52.41

 

Since you don't like SL (Aus, Eng, SL, Pak) - so that you don't feel bad

With timeline 

Kallis - 50.41

SRT - 51.33

 

Without timeline

Kallis - 50.14

SRT - 50.87

 

You want to compare Kallis against India whom SRT never faced with SRT against SA whom Kallis didn't face in tests.