Pakistan is producing the likes of Shaheen Shah and Naseem Shah whilst India is producing nothing

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, Serpico said:

Shaheen is just okay in test cricket so far but looking real good in ODIs. 45 wickets from 20 matches

 

 

He is a good ODI bowler.  But this stat may be a bit misleading as a lot of those wickets are against Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh ... while he has high averages against England, India and Australia.

[Straight Drive]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

He is a good ODI bowler.  But this stat may be a bit misleading as a lot of those wickets are against Afghanistan, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh ... while he has high averages against England, India and Australia.

True. Pakistan plays matches with teams like Zimbabwe, Ireland and those filler teams. Whereas Indian teams do not play bilaterals against such teams and even if they do, Bumrah is rested for such low profile series.

 

When did India play Zimbabwe last. Must be many years back 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Straight Drive

[Suhaan]

1 minute ago, Straight Drive said:

True. Pakistan plays matches with teams like Zimbabwe, Ireland and those filler teams. Whereas Indian teams do not play bilaterals against such teams and even if they do, Bumrah is rested for such low profile series.

 

When did India play Zimbabwe last. Must be many years back 

Yes,true

These teams are great to have games with to test our next line of crop be it in batting or bowling

Long time bck we used to call these teams and guys like Ganguly,Sachin,Kumble,Zaheer,Nehra were rested that is how we groomed Yuvi,Gautam,Pathan etc

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

True. Pakistan plays matches with teams like Zimbabwe, Ireland and those filler teams. Whereas Indian teams do not play bilaterals against such teams and even if they do, Bumrah is rested for such low profile series.

 

When did India play Zimbabwe last. Must be many years back 

 

 

And when we play against Zim, we usually play India A cricketers.

 

That is the right approach too.

 

It would be nice if we can try Tyagi, Prasidh, Devdutt, Gaikwad, Bishnoi, Kishan etc. against Zim.

[First class]

On 10/28/2020 at 3:22 AM, express bowling said:

I feel the issue is a bit more complex than  " Bumrah / Shami are better, so we have no need to worry " or " We don't have anyone like Naseem or Shaheen ".

 

 

1)   Bumrah and Shami are very very good quality fast bowlers. Bumrah is amazing in all 3 formats and Shami a top quality wicket taker in tests and ODIs.

 

But Shami debuted in 2013 at an official age of 22 and Bumrah debuted in 2016 at age 22 too.

 

 

 

 

2)  Since Bumrah's debut in January 2016, we have not given meaningful chances to a single promising fast bowler within age 23 or 24.

 

Kohli and Shastri prefer experienced pacers, even in JAMODIs.  They introduce pacers only via T20Is, which is the worst format for new pacers ... while ODI is the best format for youngsters to debut in.

 

Even Shami, averaging 25, is usually dropped from ODIs by Kohli, especially in big matches.

 

Saini was ready for international cricket in January 2018. Bowling accurately at express pace. He was 25 then. But he made his ODI debut almost 2 years later, at age 27. And still waiting for his test debut. When will we play him in tests  ?  When he is 33 and bowling 7 kph slower  ??  Why was he not played in tests against Afghanistan,  Bangladesh or in NZ when Ishant was injured.

 

Siraj was running through sides in 4 day matches for our A team in 2018. But Shardul was preferred when a test spot opened up. And Siraj seems to have lost a bit of pace after sitting on the bench for 2+ years.  He was ready at age 24 but still waiting for a test debut at age 26 and a half. And he is not looking as good as he did in mid 2018. 

 

Prasidh is not even there as an additional pacer to Australia, while Shardul ( who lacks accuracy, height or extra pace ) is in the ODI squad.

 

 

 

 

3)  I don't buy the logic that we can't play / don't need to play young fast bowlers because Bumrah, Shami and Ishant are doing well.

 

a)  The 3rd pacer's slot have opened up when Ishant has got injured repeatedly.

 

b)  We could have tried young fast bowlers in bilateral ODIs. Have done it rarely.

 

c)  We could have tried young fast bowlers by rotation in tests, against weak sides at home. 

 

 

 

4)  Let's study the progress of our promising young quick bowlers since Bumrah's debut in January 2016

 

Saini ... Genuine fast bowler who is accurate too and gets seam movement both ways.

 

Yet to debut in tests, played just 5 ODIs despite being almost 28 years old.

 

Siraj ... Sharp bowler who is a genuine wicket taker in 4 day matches.

 

Yet to debut in tests. 

 

Prasidh ... Tall genuine fast bowler who gets steep bounce, seam movement and outswing.

 

Played just 9 FC matches in 5.5 years although he averages a magnificent 20. Has been removed from our A team due to a single bad List A match.

 

Nagarkoti  ... Genuine fast bowler who is short and very skiddy.

 

Took 2 years to recover from injury while rehabilitating at the NCA. Some say his injury was managed badly.

 

Mavi ... Genuine fast bowler with a big inswing and steep bounce.

 

2 injuries have hampered his progress. The only case where no one can be blamed.

 

Tyagi ....  Tall, bouncy, genuine fast bowler with an aggressive attitude and good yorkers. Moves the ball too.

 

Just starting off.  Good to see him going to Australia as an additional bowler. Needs to be developed this way.

 

Avesh ... Tall sharp pacer who bowled a very heavy ball.

 

Played for our A side very intermittently  despite good FC performances. Lost pace and bounce after that.

 

Khaleel  ... Tall, hit the deck, bouncy pacer who can be sharp.

 

His bowling action was tampered with and his bowling style changed from hit the deck to swing bowker, after he got his chance to play for Team India. He isn't the same bowler since.

 

 

5)  In most cases, Fast bowlers bowl quickly between age 23 and 31 or thereabouts. We need to use them at this stage. Debut them by 21 or 22, so that they have sufficient experience by age 25 ... And combine pace with experience for 7 years.




6)  Both Naseem and Shaheen are really good talents. Their real age is probably 21 or 22 ... They have the pace and they are gaining experience ... and by the time they are 24 or 25, they will be really good pacers.

There are a lot of things wrong with Pakistani cricket ... but giving chances to these 2 young fast bowlers is one of the few good things they have done in recent times.

 

 

 

In a nutshell  ----   We have very good fast bowlers in test matches in the form of Bumrah, Shami and Ishant. But let us not rest on our laurels. Let's play Shami in ODIs too ... And start giving chances to good quality genuine fast bowlers by age 22 or 23. The best format for genuine fast bowlers to debut is bilateral ODIs.

 

 

 

 

 

Very good and balanced post among so many " extremist" views of all sort, great job. I learnt a lot about state of Indian fast bowling stocks through your post. I like Saini a lot, he is a great talent and should have been a regular fixture alongwith Bupra and Shami for two years now. He can walk into any other country's playing eleven in Tests and ODI. Among the young ones, Tyagi is another exceptional talent , much ahead of Marvi and Nagarkoti. I hope he will be fast tracked to international cricket, ODIS in near future, no later than 2 years. 

 

As far Pakistani young pacemen, Naseem has talent but only time will tell whether he will be the next Sami or Waqar. Shaheen is the best and most talented young fast bowler around these days. Both of them are lucky to play international cricket without having to go through years of FC experience behind them. There is no better learning school for young cricketers than international cricket. They are also lucky to have Waqar Younis as their fast bowling coach. 

[prudent_kreeda]

Few personal observations - 

 

1. India is producing now more young pacers with more focus on Pace, Fitness, Action , delivery stride . A product of pace coaching in conventional  way.  They seem to have attributes or the base to be good pacers in long format . Less chance of freaks .

2. Pakistani young bowlers seem to be more focusing on tools /smarts mostly required for shorter formats . probable chance of  1-2 freaks coming up.

Due to the above there is more chance of  young Indian pacers shining in long formats and lasting longer while Pakistani young pacers may shine in shorter format .

3. There is urgent need for Indian young pacers  to be mentored by a very good pace bowling coach on finer aspects of wicket taking ability  . This seems to be the issue to be addressed . They have pace , mostly correct action, ability to seam the ball a bit  but not many wickets . Proof is the domestic games , All India A pacers should be picking up quite a few fifers in domestic long format but the result is not that satisfactory . Actually it is the Lord Unadcut  who is is not an India material  is the chart topper as he deceives batters at Ranji level . I would like to see lot more LBWs, Bowled  wickets , that would mean -  they  are accurate and  move the ball from a length where batsmen get beaten & either get bowled , LBW or caught in slips  in addition to  good bouncers .

 

India May be having a good pace attack now but unless the young ones improve quickly in couple of years ,  the pace attack quality will not be sustained .

In shorter format , there is too much reliance on Bhumra . If he is not able to play , indian pace bowling is not good enough in the foreseeable future .

 

I would be looking for any young bowler who is nearly at least 140K, but very good in moving it  by swing and has a very good short ball  Or  A pacy bowler who gets bounce from length and also seams the ball to get bowled /LBW or catch at slips and should be able to bowl 16 overs per day at same pace .

There are tribes who will fetch loads of wickets in future . Pure pace without any movement will not survive , they will be punished . 

 

Pak has at least one stand out bowler who has already made the grade and has all attributes to be a very good international class bowler in Shaheen under 21-22 but India yet to find any at that level right now.

 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Pakistan has not produced 1 fast bowler in more than 2 decades who have over 200 test wickets.

They have produced only 1 bowler with over 200 odi wickets in last 20 decades.

I don't want such flash in the pan performers.

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