Ponting's golden period performance betters Steve Smith's - Smith's steep downfall now is also very likely

[Stan AF]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Yeah that Indian team wouldn't drop half a dozen catches of him.

Good one

[Soldier]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

@serpico and @Nikola . I was undr the same impression that Smith has peaked higher than any batsman I saw and it just shows how much we forget over time and under/overestimate the past.  

 

For Ponting, he was consistent from late 99 but he became a force of nature in March 2002 until end of 2006 as seen below. After that he could never score like that again

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=13+Dec+2006;spanmin1=07+Mar+2002;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

For Smith, he was a high volume scorer in the in the period from early 2014 tothe recent Ashes but just like ponting he seems to have lost it. Whether permanent or not, only time will tell

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/267192.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Sep+2019;spanmin1=01+Jan+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Eerily similar peak stats. I think Ponting's is a bit underrated since he played alongside Haydos, Martyn, Gilly, Langer etc  

 

More like he looked better than he is cause he played alongside them after haydos and Langer did all the hard work of seeing off the new ball. Plus the bowlers like McGrath and Warne to support Aussies.

 

No surprise he struggled post Warne and McGrath. 

 

 

[adi B]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Yeah that Indian team wouldn't drop half a dozen catches of him.

That was only 1 innings in pune where he was dropped like 5 times, rest 2 100s were fine and also this current Indian side(including 2017 side) has a much better bowling line up as compared to the 2000s .

Smith definitely faced a better line up than Ponting did In India 

[Soldier]

27 minutes ago, adi B said:

That was only 1 innings in pune where he was dropped like 5 times, rest 2 100s were fine and also this current Indian side(including 2017 side) has a much better bowling line up as compared to the 2000s .

Smith definitely faced a better line up than Ponting did In India 

better ? this attack is an ATG attack for all conditions. better is an understatement. smith averages 42 this series vs ATG level attack. he averaged 75 vs 2016 weaker attack. 

 

smith is way better than ponting if you look at the quality of bowlers he has faced. I do think his number will drop lower in india this time when all the stars return especially with the addition of bumrah alongside shami and umesh who are both ATGs in indian conditons. Well asian for shami. 

[New guy]

16 hours ago, Gollum said:

When someone is so far ahead of his peers, we can make exceptions. Same reason why I rate Dhyan Chand and Balbir Singh Sr. as co-GOATs,  sure you can argue that standard of competition in field hockey wasn't high in that era, that there were qualitatively better players over the years (legends like Shahbaz Ahmed Sr. or more recently Jamie Dwyer ) but I am arguing about GOAThood, not 'best' of all time. 

 

Pele/Maradona are GOATs, CR7/Messi are best of all time (BOAT)

Kasparov is GOAT, Carlsen is BOAT

Bradman is GOAT, not BOAT (jury still out)

Laver/Federer are GOATs, Djokovic is BOAT

 

Not sure where to rank Smith and Kohli (too many ifs and buts), let us wait and watch. 

Let us wait and observe. Nothing to suggest his recent dip is because of fading hand-eye. His batting wasn't needed against Pak in 2019, NZ and Ind came up with superior tactics to counter him, he was simply outprepared, walked into an ambush (Wagner, Ashwin) if I may say. I am sure he will come up with a response the next time he faces these two teams. Also we don't know how the lockdown situation affected him, crazy times.

 

If he can time his retirement well, leave on a high, who knows? Doubt he will linger for too long once his reflexes are on the wane. Unlike Ponting, highest run tally is beyond his reach, only his average (and rate of 100s, conversion) sets him apart from the ATG crowd. 

 

I don't worry too much about technique or aesthetics, only results matter, doesn't matter if you bat like Smith/Chanders or bowl like Bumrah/Malinga. Anyway we can have different interpretations of technique, no technique is flawless, who knows in 5 years time they may start teaching Smith's technique at grassroots level, let us not jump to conclusions. More than technique I will call it unorthodoxy, players have their own methods to achieve goals like Puji against off-spin or Dhoni in swinging conditions....as long as those methods yield results all is well I guess. 

but depends on who his peers are, no? If a school boy is way ahead of all his peers, will he be better than older players automatically? 

 

Have sachin or kohli or smith or Williamson play only against sri lanka and Bangladesh and watch them aberage over 100

[Serpico]

5 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

@serpico and @Nikola . I was undr the same impression that Smith has peaked higher than any batsman I saw and it just shows how much we forget over time and under/overestimate the past.  

 

For Ponting, he was consistent from late 99 but he became a force of nature in March 2002 until end of 2006 as seen below. After that he could never score like that again

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=13+Dec+2006;spanmin1=07+Mar+2002;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

For Smith, he was a high volume scorer in the in the period from early 2014 tothe recent Ashes but just like ponting he seems to have lost it. Whether permanent or not, only time will tell

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/267192.html?class=1;spanmax1=30+Sep+2019;spanmin1=01+Jan+2014;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Eerily similar peak stats. I think Ponting's is a bit underrated since he played alongside Haydos, Martyn, Gilly, Langer etc  

Okay I agree, it is eerily similar how they made exactly 6000ish runs with 75 avg before slowing down. (But Smith missed an year of his prime in between due to the ban and played more away matches than ponting in this period, but thats different topic)

 

Still the reason I don't think Smith will have same decline as Ponting is.. 

 

Ponting's biggest problem after 2006 was mass retirements of all the matchwinners.. warne, mcgrath, gilly, langer, hayden etc. It showed that his own dominance relied heavily on his team's dominance. Once SA, India, England teams started to dominate Aus and put him under pressure, his performances came sliding down. Smith on the other hand already showed that he can score heavily even in a series where other teams are dominating his team.. Aussies haven't won a single away series since 2015 but his away average is still 65 in that period. At home, even in the series lost to SA and India, he scored centuries. So even if Lyon, Starc and Warner has to retire in next 2-3 years Smith's own performance may not struggle

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, Serpico said:

Okay I agree, it is eerily similar how they made exactly 6000ish runs with 75 avg before slowing down. (But Smith missed an year of his prime in between due to the ban and played more away matches than ponting in this period, but thats different topic)

 

Still the reason I don't think Smith will have same decline as Ponting is.. 

 

Ponting's biggest problem after 2006 was mass retirements of all the matchwinners.. warne, mcgrath, gilly, langer, hayden etc. It showed that his own dominance relied heavily on his team's dominance. Once SA, India, England teams started to dominate Aus and put him under pressure, his performances came sliding down. Smith on the other hand already showed that he can score heavily even in a series where other teams are dominating his team.. Aussies haven't won a single away series since 2015 but his away average is still 65 in that period. At home, even in the series lost to SA and India, he scored centuries. So even if Lyon, Starc and Warner has to retire in next 2-3 years Smith's own performance may not struggle

 

How do you just assume a correlation between some all time greats retiring and Ponting’s dip of form ? Do you have an evidence other than your assumption, which does not count ? 
 

Few people in the game could pick the length of the ball as early as Ponting and get into a shot making position. It was one his top qualities. 
 

It takes a good eye to do the pick the length of the ball early. And you lose that into your 30s.  
 

Smith will lose it too. 

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, New guy said:

but depends on who his peers are, no? If a school boy is way ahead of all his peers, will he be better than older players automatically? 

 

Have sachin or kohli or smith or Williamson play only against sri lanka and Bangladesh and watch them aberage over 100

He still averaged 89 against England who won 11 matches and drew 10 matches in the 38 he played against them. I don't think Kohli/Smith can average 89 against India/Aus after playing 38 matches against each other

[Serpico]

9 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

How do you just assume a correlation between some all time greats retiring and Ponting’s dip of form ? Do you have an evidence other than your assumption, which does not count ? 

I haven't assumed correlation, its already there. I assumed Causation because its convenient for the argument I am making, just like you are assuming all players should always decline with age and continue playing throughout the decline   

[rangeelaraja]

11 minutes ago, Serpico said:

I haven't assumed correlation, its already there. I assumed Causation because its convenient for the argument I am making, just like you are assuming all players should always decline with age and continue playing throughout the decline   

 

 

Isn't that common sense because reflexes wane with age ?

 

It is especially true for players who rely on on eye or hand eye coordination.

 

This explains why the likes Sangakkara, Tendulkar ..still continued top form past age 35.  While Ponting, Sehwag, Gilchrist who rely on hand eye coordination ..declined rapidly.

 

Smith based on his game belongs to the second category, not the category of Sangakkara and Tendulkar 

 

 

[Soldier]

6 hours ago, Serpico said:

He still averaged 89 against England who won 11 matches and drew 10 matches in the 38 he played against them. I don't think Kohli/Smith can average 89 against India/Aus after playing 38 matches against each other

Compare the bowling quality between the two English sides and that will tell you why Sachin could average that much. 

 

A fair bit harder to score vs peak broad, peak Anderson which was post 2010, Archer, wood etc. Not talking about now but 2011-2015period of Anderson and broad were better than Harmison, Hoggard etc. 

[New guy]

13 hours ago, Serpico said:

He still averaged 89 against England who won 11 matches and drew 10 matches in the 38 he played against them. I don't think Kohli/Smith can average 89 against India/Aus after playing 38 matches against each other

But england then had a way smaller pool of players. Only the well to do people used to play cricket. It was a bunch of spoiled well to do people, playing cricket as a past time. It would be like Afghanistan or Bangladesh today in terms of professionalism. As i said, it was one professional against a bunch of ameatures 

[R!TTER]

21 hours ago, VT87 said:

No actually it’s reversed if you start poorly in 4 or 5 test series there is no escape room from you to short out your technical deficiencies in the middle of the series

2004 Sydney says otherwise, so could Bangalore 2005 btw.

[R!TTER]

21 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

Kohli has had to face ATG attacks in Aus

ATG - Starc, Lyon - in which universe 

 

Eng series in 2018 was actually near ATG in those conditions.

[mancalledsting]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:03 AM, R!TTER said:

ATG - Starc, Lyon - in which universe 

 

Eng series in 2018 was actually near ATG in those conditions.

In the universe where the word attack = all of the bowlers combined and not individual players. Let me know which one you’re living in. 

[R!TTER]

And, since when has Starc been ATG in anything other than a D/N test at home - lots of caveats there? And Lyon's never been anywhere near ATG, for an ATG attack you need at least two ATG level bowlers in a pack of 4 or 5, only Cummins has the distinction in that lineup. Oz has never fielded an ATG attack post McWarne's retirement, a fluke series by MJ, Lyon or whoever else doesn't change that 

Edited February 2, 2021 by R!TTER

[Soldier]

16 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

And, since when has Starc been ATG in anything other than a D/N test at home - lots of caveats there? And Lyon's never been anywhere near ATG, for an ATG attack you need at least two ATG level bowlers in a pack of 4 or 5, only Cummins has the distinction in that lineup. Oz has never fielded an ATG attack post McWarne's retirement, a fluke series by MJ, Lyon or whoever else doesn't change that 

They are ATGs in their Condtions. 

 

Starc averages 25 in Australia. Better than most ATGs. Might have increased a little due to India butchering him recently. 

[R!TTER]

Like I said, that attack is not ATG unless of course you want to add every Tom, dick & harry in there -

 

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Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
v England	2017-2018	3	18	11	6.00	0	14	4/91	27.21	0	1	0	-21.21
v India	2012-2021	10	250	52	27.77	0	31	3/40	37.38	0	7	0	-9.60
v New Zealand	2011-2020	6	87	32*	17.40	0	20	4/57	32.45	0	3	0	-15.04
v Pakistan	2016-2019	3	105	84	35.00	0	14	4/36	30.00	0	1	0	5.00
v South Africa	2012-2016	3	85	68*	21.25	0	16	6/154	29.56	1	1	0	-8.31
v Sri Lanka	2012-2019	3	7	5	3.50	0	20	5/46	19.35	3	2	0	-15.84
in Australia	2011-2021	28	552	84	21.23	0	115	6/154	30.16	4	15	0	-8.93

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	2011-2021	61	1596	99	22.16	0	255	6/50	27.57	13	31	0	-5.40	Profile
filtered	2011-2021	28	552	84	21.23	0	115	6/154	30.16	4	15	0	-8.93

 

In D/N tests -

 

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	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	2011-2021	61	1596	99	22.16	0	255	6/50	27.57	13	31	0	-5.40	Profile
filtered	2015-2020	8	207	53	29.57	0	46	6/66	18.86	3	4	0	10.70

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
v England	2017-2017	1	26	20	13.00	0	8	5/88	17.12	1	2	0	-4.12
v India	2020-2020	1	15	15	15.00	0	4	4/53	15.00	0	0	0	0.00
v New Zealand	2015-2019	2	77	30	38.50	0	12	5/52	10.08	1	1	0	28.41
v Pakistan	2016-2019	2	10	10	10.00	0	14	6/66	21.07	1	1	0	-11.07
v South Africa	2016-2016	1	53	53	53.00	0	6	4/80	26.33	0	0	0	26.66
v Sri Lanka	2019-2019	1	26	26*	-	0	2	2/41	48.50	0	0	0	-
in Australia	2015-2020	8	207	53	29.57	0	46	6/66	18.86	3	4	0	10.70

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by R!TTER