Ponting's golden period performance betters Steve Smith's - Smith's steep downfall now is also very likely

[rangeelaraja]

 

7 year peak of Ponting's play - 2002-2008 = Ponting amassed as many runs ( 7500 )  at a better average ( 65 ) than Steve Smith's entire career ( 61) 

 

Ponting's 7 year peak

 

Ultimate Ponting ended his career with a Test Batting average of 51 odd. 

 

Steve Smith too will experience a few years of 40-45 average ,that will bring down his career average to early 50's.

 

This has been true for SRT as well, who in 7 year his peak from 1996-2002 averaged 60+ but ended with a career average of 53.

Tendulkar's 7 year peak

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[PunterLog]

Smith's fall will be rapid like Sehwag and Ponting. Players with good techniques adjust for their loss of hand-eye coordination and manage to do well even into their late 30's.

 

Smith relies on his hand-eye coordination to make up for his dodgy technique. Once his reflexes slow down, his hand-eye coordination will suffer and he'll be a sitting duck.

[Gollum]

Smith's peak started in 2013 or '14,  initially picked as spin A/R. I am sure his 7 years average will be over 70. Ponting isn't even a comparison since he wasn't an all-conditions batsman like Smith, he was vulnerable against quality spin and swing. 

 

Not getting into Smith vs SRT debate since that will start a war here.

 

Rather telling that despite us having figured him out, despite us coming with so many plans and traps, getting him out so cheaply in first two two tests he still managed to score 300+ runs at an average of almost 45, nearly 2 match-winning efforts in final 2 tests but thwarted by our ATG 4th innings efforts. If not for us dropping Labu so many times, Smith would have been the highest run-scorer of this series. 

 

Think he won't hang around for too long, his USP is second best average since Don with 50+ tests. His target will be to complete 10k test runs at 60+ avg, around 40 100s. To go with that another bumper series in Eng or Ind and safe to call him post WW-II GOAT. 

[rangeelaraja]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Smith's peak started in 2013 or '14,  initially picked as spin A/R. I am sure his 7 years average will be over 70. Ponting isn't even a comparison since he wasn't an all-conditions batsman like Smith, he was vulnerable against quality spin and swing. 

 

Not getting into Smith vs SRT debate since that will start a war here.

 

Rather telling that despite us having figured him out, despite us coming with so many plans and traps, getting him out so cheaply in first two two tests he still managed to score 300+ runs at an average of almost 45, nearly 2 match-winning efforts in final 2 tests but thwarted by our ATG 4th innings efforts. If not for us dropping Labu so many times, Smith would have been the highest run-scorer of this series. 

 

Think he won't hang around for too long, his USP is second best average since Don with 50+ tests. His target will be to complete 10k test runs at 60+ avg, around 40 100s. To go with that another bumper series in Eng or Ind and safe to call him post WW-II GOAT. 

 

 

You rightly berate Ponting's sub-standard performance against quality spin and swing even at his peak. Although I don't entirely agree with that- Harbhajan had sorted him out = Ponting did not do so badly in Sri Lanka.

 

But then you ignore that Don primarily played against only  1 team for most of his career and never even played tests in sub-continental spin conditions.

 

Smith has too effed up a technique to be called post WW-II GOAT. His performance decline and average decline will be astonishingly steep.

[SrinjayDutta]

the verdict for me is still open on smith. his odi credentials are not as good to label him a all time great. if he manages to complete 11000 12000 with similar avg as of now, then comparison with SRT comes into mind. And I will deduct points for elegance, comparing SRT's style and technique with smith's scythe like batsmanship :) 

[mancalledsting]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Smith's peak started in 2013 or '14,  initially picked as spin A/R. I am sure his 7 years average will be over 70. Ponting isn't even a comparison since he wasn't an all-conditions batsman like Smith, he was vulnerable against quality spin and swing. 

 

Not getting into Smith vs SRT debate since that will start a war here.

 

Rather telling that despite us having figured him out, despite us coming with so many plans and traps, getting him out so cheaply in first two two tests he still managed to score 300+ runs at an average of almost 45, nearly 2 match-winning efforts in final 2 tests but thwarted by our ATG 4th innings efforts. If not for us dropping Labu so many times, Smith would have been the highest run-scorer of this series. 

 

Think he won't hang around for too long, his USP is second best average since Don with 50+ tests. His target will be to complete 10k test runs at 60+ avg, around 40 100s. To go with that another bumper series in Eng or Ind and safe to call him post WW-II GOAT. 

His better performances in the final two tests were vs a very inexperienced Indian bowling attack. If we had him figured out with our front line attack, things likely would have been different. 

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

But then you ignore that Don primarily played against only  1 team for most of his career and never even played tests in sub-continental spin conditions.

When someone is so far ahead of his peers, we can make exceptions. Same reason why I rate Dhyan Chand and Balbir Singh Sr. as co-GOATs,  sure you can argue that standard of competition in field hockey wasn't high in that era, that there were qualitatively better players over the years (legends like Shahbaz Ahmed Sr. or more recently Jamie Dwyer ) but I am arguing about GOAThood, not 'best' of all time. 

 

Pele/Maradona are GOATs, CR7/Messi are best of all time (BOAT)

Kasparov is GOAT, Carlsen is BOAT

Bradman is GOAT, not BOAT (jury still out)

Laver/Federer are GOATs, Djokovic is BOAT

 

Not sure where to rank Smith and Kohli (too many ifs and buts), let us wait and watch. 

Quote

Smith has too effed up a technique to be called post WW-II GOAT. His performance decline and average decline will be astonishingly steep.

Let us wait and observe. Nothing to suggest his recent dip is because of fading hand-eye. His batting wasn't needed against Pak in 2019, NZ and Ind came up with superior tactics to counter him, he was simply outprepared, walked into an ambush (Wagner, Ashwin) if I may say. I am sure he will come up with a response the next time he faces these two teams. Also we don't know how the lockdown situation affected him, crazy times.

 

If he can time his retirement well, leave on a high, who knows? Doubt he will linger for too long once his reflexes are on the wane. Unlike Ponting, highest run tally is beyond his reach, only his average (and rate of 100s, conversion) sets him apart from the ATG crowd. 

 

I don't worry too much about technique or aesthetics, only results matter, doesn't matter if you bat like Smith/Chanders or bowl like Bumrah/Malinga. Anyway we can have different interpretations of technique, no technique is flawless, who knows in 5 years time they may start teaching Smith's technique at grassroots level, let us not jump to conclusions. More than technique I will call it unorthodoxy, players have their own methods to achieve goals like Puji against off-spin or Dhoni in swinging conditions....as long as those methods yield results all is well I guess. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

7 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

His better performances in the final two tests were vs a very inexperienced Indian bowling attack. If we had him figured out with our front line attack, things likely would have been different. 

Likely, may...we don't know for sure. 3rd test we still had Bumrah, Ashwin (our two best bets against him) and he scored 210 something, run-out in 1st innings. He keeps finding ways to somehow score runs, never completely disappears like Kohli (Eng 2014, Aus 2017, NZ 2020), must be appreciated for that.  

[Nikola]

Smith's run are way more valuable for Australia and he has been literally carrying his team for last 7 years now. I agree his downfall has started post ashes and most likely we won't see those 700+ series type of performance from him anymore but i think we need to be careful of him if Australia manage to reach final in test championship he is one who can single handedly win match for his team.

[putrevus]

Ponting was a beast at his peak. Smith does not have the ability to attack like Ponting, Ponting's peak may be one of the best for any batsmen. Like twin 100s in his 100th test. Chasing nearly 280 in less than 60 overs.

[Gollum]

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ponting was a beast at his peak. Smith does not have the ability to attack like Ponting, Ponting's peak may be one of the best for any batsmen. Like twin 100s in his 100th test. Chasing nearly 280 in less than 60 overs.

Watched 2019 Ashes? Smith consistently tore apart English bowlers at 70+ SR, got twin 140s in first test. Smith is capable of attacking cricket, he makes it look so effortless, easily rotating strike in between boundaries, scoreboard keeps ticking. Only in last 2 series against Ind, NZ has he slowed down....mostly due to smart tactics by opponent bowlers. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Gollum

[putrevus]

Just now, Gollum said:

Watched 2019 Ashes? Smith consistently tore apart English bowlers at 70+ SR, got twin 140s in first test. Smith is capable of attacking cricket, he makes it look so effortless, easily rotating strike. Only in last 2 series against Ind, NZ has he slowed down....mostly due to smart tactics by opponent bowlers. 

Yes I saw it.  I would still rate Ponting's peak as the best.

[mancalledsting]

47 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Likely, may...we don't know for sure. 3rd test we still had Bumrah, Ashwin (our two best bets against him) and he scored 210 something, run-out in 1st innings. He keeps finding ways to somehow score runs, never completely disappears like Kohli (Eng 2014, Aus 2017, NZ 2020), must be appreciated for that.  

He disappeared in South Africa 2018, that was a massive series for Australia against a good bowling attack in difficult conditions. VK did well in the same conditions just a couple of months earlier. I felt Bumrah and Ashwin were spent forces come the third test and their eventual injuries. Agree, we don’t know for sure. 

[Gollum]

35 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

He disappeared in South Africa 2018, that was a massive series for Australia against a good bowling attack in difficult conditions. VK did well in the same conditions just a couple of months earlier. I felt Bumrah and Ashwin were spent forces come the third test and their eventual injuries. Agree, we don’t know for sure. 

Yeah Kohli was awesome in RSA, one of the greatest visiting batsmen to that country. Big failure for Smith in that series and not just on-field. 

[mancalledsting]

My first instinct is to say Ponting at his peak was better than Steve Smith. Now that I think about it, at Ponting’s peak, what would international test prominent bowling lineups have looked like :

 

South Africa 

Pollock 

Nel 

ntini 

Kallis 

 

India 

Nehra 

Agarkar 

Zaheer 

bhaji 

Kumble 

 

England 

Harmison 

Flintoff 

Giles

 

Pakistan 

Sami 

Akhtar 

Navid ul Hasan 

Kaneria 

 

Now compare to Smith 

 

England 
 

Anderson 

Broad 

Stokes 

Woakes 

 

South Africa 

Philander 

Rabada 

Maharaj 

 

India 

Bhuvi 

Varun 

Shami 

Yadav 

Ashwin 

Jadeja 

 

Also since 2016 wickets have been quite bowler friendly. Please add to/ammend above attacks as it’s off top of my head but can’t see much of a difference between the eras, esp when second half of Steve smith’s peak had bowler friendly wicket although concussion substitute goes against him 

Edited January 30, 2021 by mancalledsting

[Soldier]

He is not better than Kohli. He is better than ponting easily though. 

 

Wait and watch. Next series vs India in India will decid who is better. I am certain Kohli will beat him there this time. 

 

Kohli will be back with a vengeance.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

 

Kaneria 

 

Now compare to Smith 

 

England 
 

Anderson 

Broad 

Stokes 

Woakes 

 

South Africa 

Philander 

Rabada 

Maharaj 

 

India 

Bhuvi 

Varun 

Shami 

Yadav 

Ashwin 

Jadeja 

 

Also since 2016 wickets have been quite bowler friendly. Please add to/ammend above attacks as it’s off top of my head but can’t see much of a difference between the eras, esp when second half of Steve smith’s peak had bowler friendly wicket although concussion substitute goes against him 

 

U forgot NZ

 

Boult

Southee

Wagner 

Now they have jamieson 

 

and SA had Morkel, steyn as well 

[Soldier]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Watched 2019 Ashes? Smith consistently tore apart English bowlers at 70+ SR, got twin 140s in first test. Smith is capable of attacking cricket, he makes it look so effortless, easily rotating strike in between boundaries, scoreboard keeps ticking. Only in last 2 series against Ind, NZ has he slowed down....mostly due to smart tactics by opponent bowlers. 

Which means he got worked out. Even in Australia he only performed in two flat pitches. On sporting tracks with seam he struggledm same in South Africa. Rabada will record him there. He is still top 2 best ever in tests however Kohli can get him. 

[Soldier]

17 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

My first instinct is to say Ponting at his peak was better than Steve Smith. Now that I think about it, at Ponting’s peak, what would international test prominent bowling lineups have looked like :

 

South Africa 

Pollock 

Nel 

ntini 

Kallis 

 

India 

Nehra 

Agarkar 

Zaheer 

bhaji 

Kumble 

 

England 

Harmison 

Flintoff 

Giles

 

Pakistan 

Sami 

Akhtar 

Navid ul Hasan 

Kaneria 

 

Now compare to Smith 

 

England 
 

Anderson 

Broad 

Stokes 

Woakes 

 

South Africa 

Philander 

Rabada 

Maharaj 

 

India 

Bhuvi 

Varun 

Shami 

Yadav 

Ashwin 

Jadeja 

 

Also since 2016 wickets have been quite bowler friendly. Please add to/ammend above attacks as it’s off top of my head but can’t see much of a difference between the eras, esp when second half of Steve smith’s peak had bowler friendly wicket although concussion substitute goes against him 

Potting would have got wrecked by modern Indian ruthless pace attack. Playing against Nehra agarkar and khan is different to modern Indian attack with ATG level beasts. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Soldier

[Soldier]

But one thing Kohli can never do is carry a team like Smith vs England in England. In swing conditions Kohli can't. In pacy bouncy and seam tracks he can. On spin tracks he could but not at the level of Smith.