IPL ... Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners ....

[tapandrun]

Sen's interview with RR media (subtitles):

 

[TellTheTruth]

I don't think there is a problem with Indian selectors at the international level wanting fast bowlers. They went out of their way to give chances to Prasidh Krishna and gave Umran Malik India A and India selections despite him hardly playing any domestic cricket. Maliks first First-Class match was with India A, which must be extremely rare. I can guarantee that Mayank Yadav will get picked for India and India A as soon as his fitness gets back on track.

The only problem with some posters on this sub is that they think a faster bowler is automatically better all the time, even if that faster bowler isn't even all that fast to begin with. Rashid Khan showed that 140-145 km/h in itself is not that hard for (non-Indian) tailenders to deal with. England recently won a T20 World Cup with Sam Curran and Woakes bowling in the powerplay; they had no Bumrah- or Malinga-type bowlers. It would be nice if India had three bowlers who can bowl 140+ km/h regularly, swing the new ball, nail yorkers and bouncers, but considering how rare they are in world cricket, it's okay to have slower bowlers that pick up wickets with the new ball and can bowl to a plan at the death rather than a useless Prasidh Krishna-type 'fast' bowler. Regardless, pace bowling won't be the reason India can't win a World Cup. The lack of power hitting and all-rounders is the reason. The last time India scored 170+ against good teams multiple times in a T20 World Cup was in 2007, pre-IPL.

[New guy]

24 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

I don't think there is a problem with Indian selectors at the international level wanting fast bowlers. They went out of their way to give chances to Prasidh Krishna and gave Umran Malik India A and India selections despite him hardly playing any domestic cricket. Maliks first First-Class match was with India A, which must be extremely rare. I can guarantee that Mayank Yadav will get picked for India and India A as soon as his fitness gets back on track.

The only problem with some posters on this sub is that they think a faster bowler is automatically better all the time, even if that faster bowler isn't even all that fast to begin with. Rashid Khan showed that 140-145 km/h in itself is not that hard for (non-Indian) tailenders to deal with. England recently won a T20 World Cup with Sam Curran and Woakes bowling in the powerplay; they had no Bumrah- or Malinga-type bowlers. It would be nice if India had three bowlers who can bowl 140+ km/h regularly, swing the new ball, nail yorkers and bouncers, but considering how rare they are in world cricket, it's okay to have slower bowlers that pick up wickets with the new ball and can bowl to a plan at the death rather than a useless Prasidh Krishna-type 'fast' bowler. Regardless, pace bowling won't be the reason India can't win a World Cup. The lack of power hitting and all-rounders is the reason. The last time India scored 170+ against good teams multiple times in a T20 World Cup was in 2007, pre-IPL.

There has been a marked difference in culture and grooming between when we had Kohli/shastri vs Rohit/Dravid. The culture is completely different. 

 

It's not just about selecting someone but how they are used and encouraged. Someone like umran needs a lot of grooming and attention. Under Kohli shastri even earlier average bowlers like ishant etc saw a resurgence. Newcomers were bowling all out. All bowlers knew captain and coach had their back.

 

All of this makes a huge difference in a bowlers confidence. Current feeling is that most of managements attention is on medium pacers and spinners and pace bowlers are just thrown into the team without much guidance or support. They are held to a different standard than medium pacers. They get lesser matches, they are scrutinized more. 

 

Under Kohli even bowlers who had failed before saw so much improvement and agression. The opposite is happening under Rohit/Dravid, fast bowlers seen lacking in confidence, even Siraj seems to be going backwards. From injuries to time in middle and how pace bowlers are being utilised have changed clearly, there is a marked shift in fast bowling culture.

Edited April 11, 2024 by New guy

[singhvivek141]

25 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

I don't think there is a problem with Indian selectors at the international level wanting fast bowlers. They went out of their way to give chances to Prasidh Krishna and gave Umran Malik India A and India selections despite him hardly playing any domestic cricket. Maliks first First-Class match was with India A, which must be extremely rare. I can guarantee that Mayank Yadav will get picked for India and India A as soon as his fitness gets back on track.

The only problem with some posters on this sub is that they think a faster bowler is automatically better all the time, even if that faster bowler isn't even all that fast to begin with. Rashid Khan showed that 140-145 km/h in itself is not that hard for (non-Indian) tailenders to deal with. England recently won a T20 World Cup with Sam Curran and Woakes bowling in the powerplay; they had no Bumrah- or Malinga-type bowlers. It would be nice if India had three bowlers who can bowl 140+ km/h regularly, swing the new ball, nail yorkers and bouncers, but considering how rare they are in world cricket, it's okay to have slower bowlers that pick up wickets with the new ball and can bowl to a plan at the death rather than a useless Prasidh Krishna-type 'fast' bowler. Regardless, pace bowling won't be the reason India can't win a World Cup. The lack of power hitting and all-rounders is the reason. The last time India scored 170+ against good teams multiple times in a T20 World Cup was in 2007, pre-IPL.

I don't know about rest, but for me personally 

 

1. Fast bowling is exciting and that's why it grabs my attention immediately. I am watching cricket from the days of Ambrose, Donald and every great fast bowler in the history has spoken on how bowling "fast" is a special base skill on top of which other skills can be formed upon.

 

2. There are guys like KM Asif, Deshpande who has clocked high speeds..no one talks about them. International cricket as well, people don't talk about Jermain Lawson, Tait or Mohd Sami but talk about Lee, Bond, Akhtar, Thompson. All of them have skills built on top of raw pace. That's what the job of coaches are, build an architecture on top of a solid foundation. Pace gives you that edge.

 

Akashdeep is slower than a Deshpande, but he is rated highly, similarly Khaleel is clocking higher speeds than Harshit, but I don't consider him an India material over the latter, so your this argument that every fast bowler is better than a comparatively slower one is incorrect.

 

Fast bowling is a hard, thankless and demanding job. It takes a lot from the body and hence every young fast bowler is treated as "Gold" across the world. India is perhaps the only nation where fast bowlers are treated with a shorter rope.

 

See the below comments from Bharat Arun. Someone who actually used the foundation of pace from Bumrah, Shami and developed into the formidable bowlers that they are now.

 

https://www.onmanorama.com/sports/cricket/2018/12/12/indian-fast-bowlers-are-like-racehorses-says-bowling-coach.html

[Lone Wolf]

59 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

I don't think there is a problem with Indian selectors at the international level wanting fast bowlers. They went out of their way to give chances to Prasidh Krishna and gave Umran Malik India A and India selections despite him hardly playing any domestic cricket. Maliks first First-Class match was with India A, which must be extremely rare. I can guarantee that Mayank Yadav will get picked for India and India A as soon as his fitness gets back on track.

The only problem with some posters on this sub is that they think a faster bowler is automatically better all the time, even if that faster bowler isn't even all that fast to begin with. Rashid Khan showed that 140-145 km/h in itself is not that hard for (non-Indian) tailenders to deal with. England recently won a T20 World Cup with Sam Curran and Woakes bowling in the powerplay; they had no Bumrah- or Malinga-type bowlers. It would be nice if India had three bowlers who can bowl 140+ km/h regularly, swing the new ball, nail yorkers and bouncers, but considering how rare they are in world cricket, it's okay to have slower bowlers that pick up wickets with the new ball and can bowl to a plan at the death rather than a useless Prasidh Krishna-type 'fast' bowler. Regardless, pace bowling won't be the reason India can't win a World Cup. The lack of power hitting and all-rounders is the reason. The last time India scored 170+ against good teams multiple times in a T20 World Cup was in 2007, pre-IPL.

Last 3 T20 WCs India have lost are those in which we selected poor pace and spin attacks...  Current trend of accurate trundlers with Bumrah and a finger spinner will never work and that's the problem with Indian TM. 

Last time the bowling attack we took to a T20 WC in Australia was the worst among top sides..  Shameless display. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, TellTheTruth said:

I don't think there is a problem with Indian selectors at the international level wanting fast bowlers. They went out of their way to give chances to Prasidh Krishna and gave Umran Malik India A and India selections despite him hardly playing any domestic cricket. Maliks first First-Class match was with India A, which must be extremely rare. I can guarantee that Mayank Yadav will get picked for India and India A as soon as his fitness gets back on track.

The only problem with some posters on this sub is that they think a faster bowler is automatically better all the time, even if that faster bowler isn't even all that fast to begin with. Rashid Khan showed that 140-145 km/h in itself is not that hard for (non-Indian) tailenders to deal with. England recently won a T20 World Cup with Sam Curran and Woakes bowling in the powerplay; they had no Bumrah- or Malinga-type bowlers. It would be nice if India had three bowlers who can bowl 140+ km/h regularly, swing the new ball, nail yorkers and bouncers, but considering how rare they are in world cricket, it's okay to have slower bowlers that pick up wickets with the new ball and can bowl to a plan at the death rather than a useless Prasidh Krishna-type 'fast' bowler. Regardless, pace bowling won't be the reason India can't win a World Cup. The lack of power hitting and all-rounders is the reason. The last time India scored 170+ against good teams multiple times in a T20 World Cup was in 2007, pre-IPL.

 

Starting 1989 with Salil Ankola, the Indian selectors have regularly picked and discarded the flavour of the season quick bowler.

 

But the main issue is about having a vision and implementing it. It is about having a system and a cricket fraternity which wants vicious strike bowlers at international level, be it pace or spin. And then working on finding raw talent and developing them to be strike bowlers.  The Indian cricket fraternity never wanted it before the 2010s, which is why we never had bowlers averaging 25 or less with 100+ wickets in tests before Ashwin, Bumrah and Jadeja.

 

Pace is just one aspect amd the staring point. There are other aspects like bounce, accuracy, movement, ability to understand the conditions and bowl to a plan, yorkers, slower balls and most importantly fitness.

 

Does Indian cricket have a system of teaching the quicker pacers the various nuances of good bowling and keep them relatively fit  ?

 

Champion teams who have dominated test cricket away from home and won multiple ODI World Cups have always had the vision that they want most of their pacers to be tall, hit the deck pacers and 2 out of 3 pacers must be quick. A medium pacer or a short quick will be picked only if he looks exceptional. 

 

In a nutshell, let the Indian cricket fraternity look for bowlers who are can be low average strike bowlers at international level for more than 8 years. And everything else will work itself out.

Edited April 11, 2024 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Bumrah bowling vicious yorkers and low full tosses at 142 k to 145 k.

 

Bowling vicious bounces too. Saw 3 of them so far.

 

5 wickets as a result with 2 balls left.

Edited April 11, 2024 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Bumrah bounces out 2 batters in successive deliveries.

 

Loving it  !

[express bowling]

Bumrah 145.5 k yorker

[singhvivek141]

I find Akash Madhwal as mediocre.

Trundling pace, isn't tall enough...only this he was good at was yorkers and now he faltering there as well.

 

Edited April 11, 2024 by singhvivek141

[TellTheTruth]

40 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Starting 1989 with Salil Ankola, the Indian selectors have regularly picked and discarded the flavour of the season quick bowler.

 

But the main issue is about having a vision and implementing it. It is about having a system and a cricket fraternity which wants vicious strike bowlers at international level, be it pace or spin. And then working on finding raw talent and developing them to be strike bowlers.  The Indian cricket fraternity never wanted it before the 2010s, which is why we never had bowlers averaging 25 or less with 100+ wickets in tests before Ashwin, Bumrah and Jadeja.

 

Pace is just one aspect amd the staring point. There are other aspects like bounce, accuracy, movement, ability to understand the conditions and bowl to a plan, yorkers, slower balls and most importantly fitness.

 

Does Indian cricket have a system of teaching the quicker pacers the various nuances of good bowling and keep them relatively fit  ?

 

Champion teams who have dominated test cricket away from home and won multiple ODI World Cups have always had the vision that they want most of their pacers to be tall, hit the deck pacers and 2 out of 3 pacers must be quick. A medium pacer or a short quick will be picked only if he looks exceptional. 

 

In a nutshell, let the Indian cricket fraternity look for bowlers who are can be low average strike bowlers at international level for more than 8 years. And everything else will work itself out.

 

I don't disagree, BUT i think only express pace bowlers like Umran and Mayank should be fast tracked into international team because that's rare in international cricket. Bowlers in the 140-145 range should be worked on in domestic cricket to develop their skills with perhaps more access to coach and resources. No argument from me about Indian cricket needing better fast bowling culture and coaching at all levels. Plus Indian fans have a tendency to go over board in trolling fast bowlers after one or two bad games which doesn't help when it comes to producing genuine strike bowlers who are more likely to have some off days when they are still developing.

[tapandrun]

20 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I find Akash Madhwal as mediocre.

Trundling pace, isn't tall enough...only this he was good at was yorkers and now he faltering there as well.

 

Madhwal has all the attribute of tennis ball bowler - Everything is a single motion no subtle changes in run-up, loading, delivery stride, delivery and follow through are single motion, unlike other bowlers who have distinctive changes in all run-up, loading, delivery stride, delivery and follow through.

 

In t20s when batter has to hit every ball its gets hard to predict the change in line, length and pace variations, he should have worked on pace.

Rauf is v.similar in his bowling approach. Batters have to be top of their game to hit such bowlers as the changes are not that visually certain that they can move around or get into power position/stance early

 

Find similarity in Mukesh Kumar as well,if he can get momentum in his run-ups . 

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Madhwal has all the attribute of tennis ball bowler - Everything is a single motion no subtle changes in run-up, loading, delivery stride, delivery and follow through are single motion, unlike other bowlers who have distinctive changes in all run-up, loading, delivery stride, delivery and follow through.

 

In t20s when batter has to hit every ball its gets hard to predict the change in line, length and pace variations, he should have worked on pace.

Rauf is v.similar in his bowling approach. Batters have to be top of their game to hit such bowlers as the changes are not that visually certain that they can move around or get into power position/stance early

 

Find similarity in Mukesh Kumar as well,if he can get momentum in his run-ups . 

Akashdeep is also similar...

One advantage is Akashdeep is taller, hence get more bounce than the two. 

Edited April 11, 2024 by singhvivek141

[singhvivek141]

Akashdeep bowling 131-139k

Not looking as quick as he was in Tests..where he clocked 140's often.

 

Hope this is due to rustiness, and not carrying any injury.

[express bowling]

Akashdeep 143.8 k hits the bat hard.

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Akashdeep bowling 131-139k

Not looking as quick as he was in Tests..where he clocked 140's often.

 

Hope this is due to rustiness, and not carrying any injury.

 

 

Looks like rustness.

 

Now bowling 140 - 144 k..

[express bowling]

Akashdeep dismisses the rampaging Kishan with a slower ball. 

[express bowling]

39 minutes ago, TellTheTruth said:

 

I don't disagree, BUT i think only express pace bowlers like Umran and Mayank should be fast tracked into international team because that's rare in international cricket. Bowlers in the 140-145 range should be worked on in domestic cricket to develop their skills with perhaps more access to coach and resources. No argument from me about Indian cricket needing better fast bowling culture and coaching at all levels. Plus Indian fans have a tendency to go over board in trolling fast bowlers after one or two bad games which doesn't help when it comes to producing genuine strike bowlers who are more likely to have some off days when they are still developing.

 

 

All fair points.

 

One other factor I would like to add is ... most strike bowlers among pacers usually get more bounce than what is expected from their height.  Not talking about bouncers necessarily or about absolute bounce. 

 

Ishant got more bounce in absolute terms but Bumrah and Shami get more than expected bounce. Same with Marshall, Akram, Imran, Ambrose, McGrath, Walsh, Shoaib, Cummins, Rabada, Anderson etc. 

 

Obviously, not all such pacers will do well as they may lack temperament or fitness or other attributes.

 

Mayank Yadav qualifies strongly and Umran worries me on this issue. Harshit Rana qualifies. 

 

 

[express bowling]

Poor 3rd over from Akashdeep.

 

Dew causing problems for most bowlers in the 2nd innings. 

[Vickydev]

15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Poor 3rd over from Akashdeep.

 

Dew causing problems for most bowlers in the 2nd innings. 

Don't think this format suits him anyway. His economy in IPL games was 11+ before this one