The strongest test batting order since 1990

[zen]

A discussion before we engage in IPL ... from retired players, top 7:
 

Sehwag - Bradman in certain conditions. The master of playing spin

G Smith - cool in Eng, SA, etc 

Sangakkara - as a specialist batsman touched new highs

Lara - master of big 100s and someone who can win you a test with the bat

S Waugh - clutch player #1

Kallis - bat + bowl

Gilchrist - wk batsman par excellence 

 

4 left handers + 3 right handers 

[Sooda]

The whole point of this thread is to trigger the "you know who" hard core fan base

[zen]

18 minutes ago, Sooda said:

The whole point of this thread is to trigger the "you know who" hard core fan base

Why would anyone bother about “hardcore” fans  (I do not even consider those as true cricket fans)? We have seen many of those whether from Pak (Imran/Wasim) or Ind?

[Serpico]

45 minutes ago, zen said:

A discussion before we engage in IPL ... from retired players, top 7:
 

Sehwag - Bradman in certain conditions. The master of playing spin

G Smith - cool in Eng, SA, etc 

Sangakkara - as a specialist batsman touched new highs

Lara - master of big 100s and someone who can win you a test with the bat

S Waugh - clutch player #1

Kallis - bat + bowl

Gilchrist - wk batsman par excellence 

 

4 left handers + 3 right handers 

Sehwag is too much of a sub continent bully. I would replace him with Al Cook whose runs are more evenly spread

 

And replace Waugh with Ponting/Dravid. Waugh played most of his career at 5 and as you have theorized earlier anything scored below 3 are soft runs and should count less than top order runs. Both ponting and Dravid have much better creds than Waugh with this criteria

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Sehwag is too much of a sub continent bully. I would replace him with Al Cook whose runs are more evenly spread

 

And replace Waugh with Ponting/Dravid. Waugh played most of his career at 5 and as you have theorized earlier anything scored below 3 are soft runs and should count less than top order runs. Both ponting and Dravid have much better creds than Waugh with this criteria

One of my key points was on doing well at the point of entry of  0-99. A top order (#1-3) batsman would automatically be in there ... S Waugh is known for his clutch batting and has batted for a few tests (not many, may be like 5-6) in the top order too. Waugh would be in my top 2 picks esp. considering how he did well v Aus’ key competitors WI and SA, along with arch rivals Eng. Many of the series among those teams are still talked about because of players like Waugh, who shone at key moments ... Many Ind batsmen are likely to avg less against top quality attacks, having faltered many times whether in SL, Eng, SA and NZ (even in Zim) 

 

Cook is also a good choice but I am not looking for similar type of batsmen in the line up. Sehwag, who will make a huge impact in certain conditions, is there to provide that variety, along with Lara and Gilchrist, and complement batsmen on the other spectrum such as Smith, Sangakkara, Waugh and Kallis

Edited April 5, 2021 by zen

[Serpico]

1 minute ago, zen said:

SWaugh is known for his clutch batting a

Can you highlight that column in the statsguru

 

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Many of the series are still talked about because of players like Waugh. Many Ind batsmen are likely to avg less against top quality attacks, having faltered many times whether in SL, Eng, SA and NZ

Uh huh the series are talked more, this is a new criteria.

 

And interesting theory about faltering against top quality bowling because they failed in Eng, NZ when the Indian batsman I mentioned avg 60+ in both places. But again England is not India's arch rival so his runs in England will count less than Waugh, fair enough I guess. And Waugh averages below 20 in SL and below 40 in NZ but his team didn't lose so his 16 runs must be really clutch and weigh more I guess

 

And you completely skipped my question about ponting too

[zen]

1 minute ago, Serpico said:

Can you highlight that column in the statsguru

 

Uh huh the series are talked more, this is a new criteria.

 

And interesting theory about faltering against top quality bowling because they failed in Eng, NZ when the Indian batsman I mentioned avg 60+ in both places. But again England is not India's arch rival so his runs in England will count less than Waugh, fair enough I guess. And Waugh averages below 20 in SL and below 40 in NZ but his team didn't lose so his 16 runs must be really clutch and weigh more I guess

 

And you completely skipped my question about ponting too

I do not judge players based on nationalities. When making a combined team, I assume everyone to be playing for one team (so no Ind batsman v other batsman but just the optimized ones)

 

Ponting is great and among my favorites too but it is b/w him and Sangakkara at #3 or may be open with him in place of Smith/Sehwag. Can be preferred over Kallis too but Kallis can bowl 

 

[Serpico]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

I do not judge players based on nationalities. When making a combined team, I assume everyone to be playing for one team (so no Ind batsman v other batsman but just the optimized ones)

Neither do I, I don't give a toss about patriotism in the context of cricket. I don't like how you're trying to imply something I never mentioned in my post. Read better

 

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Ponting is great and among my favorites too but it is b/w him and Sangakkara at #3 or may be open with him in place of Smith/Sehwag. Can be preferred over Kallis too but Kallis can bowl 

Why is it between him and sanga? Kallis is included in a different place than his usual order but for no.5 only batsmen who played at no.5 are eligible? Lol make your argument for why a great top order batsman shouldn't play at 5 in place of Waugh dude. I don't care which series are talked more in your search history, that's not a criteria. 

 

Also what about Andy flower btw, he  averages as much as Gilly being a wicket keeper and played higher in the order

[zen]

41 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Neither do I, I don't give a toss about patriotism in the context of cricket. I don't like how you're trying to imply something I never mentioned in my post. Read better

 

Why is it between him and sanga? Kallis is included in a different place than his usual order but for no.5 only batsmen who played at no.5 are eligible? Lol make your argument for why a great top order batsman shouldn't play at 5 in place of Waugh dude. I don't care which series are talked more in your search history, that's not a criteria. 

 

Also what about Andy flower btw, he  averages as much as Gilly being a wicket keeper and played higher in the order

 

S Waugh is there for his clutch qualities as mentioned in the OP ... apart from being a great batsman who is good against both pace and spin ... can be slotted in at #5-6 

 

Flower is good too but Gilly compliments the line up better with his high SR batting ... A line up would ideally have a mix of Gavaskars (Smith, Sangakkara, Waugh & Kallis) and Richards (Sehwag, Lara & Gilchrist) 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by zen

[kohli]

Hayden 

Sehwag 

ponting 

sachin 

lara 

kallis 

gilly 

 

 

[ShebbySB]

This is my Test XI:

Hayden

Smith

Kallis

Sachin

Lara

Sangakkara

Gilchrist (Wk)

Akram

Warne

Murlidharan

McGrath

 

 

[Serpico]

1 hour ago, zen said:

S Waugh is there for his clutch qualities as mentioned in the OP ... apart from being a great batsman who is good against both pace and spin ... can be slotted in at #5-6 

can you define this clutch ability? sounds vague.. I'm guessing its not just regular batting avg

If we assume batsman playing at 5 need to have a unique clutch ability that the top order players do not possess, lets compare other no.5 batsman since 1990

 

 % of the total team runs:

 

Waugh scored 13.9% of his team runs, coming at 5 (in 142 innings, more than half of his career)

 

post 1990 players who scored more % of their team runs, coming at 5

 

Andy Flower - 18%

Hussey- 16.98%

ABD- 16.64%

Mo Yousuf - 16.4%

Chanderpaul - 16.1% 

M Clarke - 15.8%

G Thorpe- 14.7%

C Hooper- 14.3%

Azharuddin- 14.1%

Misbah- 14.1%

KP- 14%

 

Among above, KP/ABD/Clarke/Yousuf/Hussey can all play at higher SR than waugh, in case they have to bat with the tail

[zen]

6 hours ago, Serpico said:

can you define this clutch ability? sounds vague.. I'm guessing its not just regular batting avg

If we assume batsman playing at 5 need to have a unique clutch ability that the top order players do not possess, lets compare other no.5 batsman since 1990

 

 % of the total team runs:

 

Waugh scored 13.9% of his team runs, coming at 5 (in 142 innings, more than half of his career)

 

post 1990 players who scored more % of their team runs, coming at 5

 

Andy Flower - 18%

Hussey- 16.98%

ABD- 16.64%

Mo Yousuf - 16.4%

Chanderpaul - 16.1% 

M Clarke - 15.8%

G Thorpe- 14.7%

C Hooper- 14.3%

Azharuddin- 14.1%

Misbah- 14.1%

KP- 14%

 

Among above, KP/ABD/Clarke/Yousuf/Hussey can all play at higher SR than waugh, in case they have to bat with the tail

 

All of those on your list are capable batsmen. Note that S Waugh is right up there with Lara as the best from that period (for different reasons) ... Some of the knocks that he has played in difficult/crunch moments against deadly bowling attacks like WI and SA have defined competitiveness in cricket, for e.g. the 200 in WI coming in at 70 odd for 3  (to beat WI for the first time in a series since ages and take the title of the best test side from WI in 1995), In 97/8, 157 in Pak coming in at 20 for 3 iirc to enable Aus to win its first series in Pak in 35-40 years, and so on 

 

Of course, if it were b/w Don Bradman or Gary Sobers and S Waugh, one would go with Bradman/Sobers but not for the guys being discussed in this period as Waugh adds that steel like quality to a line up 

 

 

PS the cricket b/w a rising Aus & a declining but still strong WI from late 80s to mid 90s was some of the best in the history ... In SA too, Waugh was great when teams like Ind were getting bowled out for 100 and 66 ... Below is an e.g. of a solid fighting knock against Marshall, Ambrose  & Walsh w/ Aus in trouble:

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by zen

[R!TTER]

20 hours ago, Serpico said:

I would replace him with Al Cook whose runs are more evenly spread

Conversely Cook has a **** avg against the top two seam attacks of his time - SA & Oz! Cook is overrated a lot, yes he was good but not Gooch good especially against top quality pacers.

[Straight Drive]

Sehwag 

Dravid  

Smith

Tendulkar 

Lara

Kallis

Sangakarra (wk) 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Straight Drive