Facebook, Twitter to be blocked in India from tomorrow?

[mishra]

So as per Govmnt response to whats app and twitter, it seems Supreme Court has ordered it to come with law and not guideline which GoI/legal system can enforce so that locked box can be opened if its needed.Why this most important fact is not being highligheted by our luteyens media?

Edited May 28, 2021 by mishra

[ravishingravi]

2 hours ago, mishra said:

So as per Govmnt response to whats app and twitter, it seems Supreme Court has ordered it to come with guidelines which GoI can enforce so that locked box can be opened. Why this most important fact is not being highligheted by our luteyens media?

 

Yes, govt just wanted guidelines. SC wanted this clearly laid out in law. 

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

 

WhatsApp dodging the GoI request to track the original messenger of fake news/rumors that are objectionable and causing riots/disharmony, stating that once encrypted, even they will not be able to decrypt on their side. This is unacceptable. They are giving a treatment that they give to African countries, telling lies to a kid. Don't they know that encryption etc are like eating chocolates for our IIT engineers who are both good in Mathematics and software.

 

How come the same request is adhered to in other developed countries?  They should follow the laws of the country wherever they operate. 

 

I don't think what the Govt is saying about not affecting all users of WA is misleading. If the decryption can be done on the concerned authority like Cyber Crime branch on suspected users based on a lower court judge's discretion, why can't WA do it and get the request from the govt fulfilled? The right to privacy is a hogwash. It is largely maintained if the Govt follows the process. Courts are there as checks for the govt. 

 

As stated, these guidelines will be no use. Make it a law and make them pay. Writing letter in Twitter is going to do nothing.

 

Like which countries? WHere exactly is whatsapp sharing messages data with govt?

 

You're overestimating IIT engineers if you think that they decrypt whatsapp message easily.

 

Can you share examples of such encryption being decrypted by cyber crime branch on court order?

 

Agree with last line. Instead of writing angry letters, it's time to act.

[coffee_rules]

20 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Like which countries? WHere exactly is whatsapp sharing messages data with govt?

 

You're overestimating IIT engineers if you think that they decrypt whatsapp message easily.

 

Can you share examples of such encryption being decrypted by cyber crime branch on court order?

 

Agree with last line. Instead of writing angry letters, it's time to act.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/europe-looks-to-crack-open-data-encryption-on-messaging-services.html

[Trichromatic]

5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/europe-looks-to-crack-open-data-encryption-on-messaging-services.html

 

Doesn't provide name of any country where whatsapp shares message data with govt.

 

This is not even close to what you're claiming.

 

Even Indian govt is planning the same. I guess that automatically means whatsapp is adhering. What's the problem then? 

 

Pretty sure you also know that this is not answer to the question. 

[coffee_rules]

40 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Doesn't provide name of any country where whatsapp shares message data with govt.

 

This is not even close to what you're claiming.

 

Even Indian govt is planning the same. I guess that automatically means whatsapp is adhering. What's the problem then? 

 

Pretty sure you also know that this is not answer to the question. 

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/encrypted-messages-dont-always-stay-private-heres-what-that-means-for-you/

 

There are ways to get encrypted messages. 
 

In case of FBI, they got a court order to get a snoop into messages by compromising the other users

 

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/paul-manafort-how-did-fbi-access-whatsapp-messages.html

 

You are right. WA can’t get to encrypted messages end-to-end, but they are not fool-proof. India will have to use some of these methods. But WA and Twitter can get group messages upon request from law enforcement Rhey can’t hide behind privacy rights and technicality National security is primes overrides privacy concerns

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by coffee_rules

[Trichromatic]

22 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/encrypted-messages-dont-always-stay-private-heres-what-that-means-for-you/

 

There are ways to get encrypted messages. 
 

In case of FBI, they got a court order to get a snoop into messages by compromising the other users

 

https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/paul-manafort-how-did-fbi-access-whatsapp-messages.html

 

You are right. WA can’t get to encrypted messages end-to-end, but they are not fool-proof. India will have to use some of these methods. But WA and Twitter can get group messages upon request from law enforcement Rhey can’t hide behind privacy rights and technicality National security is primes overrides privacy concerns

 

 

 

 

 

Please share the list of the countries or name any country where whatsapp adheres to requests for messages data.

 

FBI joining a whatsapp group and reading chats is not same whatsapp sharing data with govt on request.

 

Please don't try to mislead readers with false claims if below isn't the case.

 

Quote

How come the same request is adhered to in other developed countries?

 

[mishra]

I think you guys missed this one. Story came out some time back . Please Indians don’t be naive. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

[coffee_rules]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Please share the list of the countries or name any country where whatsapp adheres to requests for messages data.

 

FBI joining a whatsapp group and reading chats is not same whatsapp sharing data with govt on request.

 

Just like govt, please don't try to mislead readers.

 

 

They do adhere to if the messages are unencrypted. I posted wa faq, but they don’t do it for India (source tracing). In any case, Private companies should adhere to laws of the countries where they operate. If two terrorists plot a act what is the point in keeping it private. EU had this issue with Paris bombing. Why does India has to follow what other countries don’t have to ? The threat is real for India from WA policies, we have live wires n Lashmir, we need more hardening rules than say other countries.

[Trichromatic]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

They do adhere to if the messages are unencrypted. I posted wa faq, but they don’t do it for India (source tracing). In any case, Private companies should adhere to laws of the countries where they operate. If two terrorists plot a act what is the point in keeping it private. EU had this issue with Paris bombing. Why does India has to follow what other countries don’t have to ? The threat is real for India from WA policies, we have live wires n Lashmir, we need more hardening rules than say other countries.

 

So, please name any country where whatsapp shares messages data on govt request. It's a very simple question which doesn't require paragraph of ifs and buts.

 

Agree threat is real for India and whatsapp should follow law of land. But what is need of making false claims, that I didn't understand.

How come the same request is adhered to in other developed countries?

 

[coffee_rules]

3 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

So, please name any country where whatsapp shares messages data on govt request. It's a very simple question which doesn't require paragraph of ifs and buts.

 

Agree threat is real for India and whatsapp should follow law of land. But what is need of making false claims, that I didn't understand.

How come the same request is adhered to in other developed countries?

 

I don’t why you are dragging this, but just to humor you.

 

https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/information-for-law-enforcement-authorities

 

Read US legal process requirements and then International Legal Process Requirements. They have added the following caveats

 

”

Additionally, we will assess whether requests are consistent with internationally recognized standards including human rights, due process, and the rule of law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account.”

 

Additionally, their CEOs run to Congress when subpoenaed and testify. In India, their In-country representatives ignore, delay and hide behind US Mgmt. I have nothing else to add. 

 

[mishra]

13 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I don’t why you are dragging this, but just to humor you.

 

https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/information-for-law-enforcement-authorities

 

Read US legal process requirements and then International Legal Process Requirements. They have added the following caveats

 

”

Additionally, we will assess whether requests are consistent with internationally recognized standards including human rights, due process, and the rule of law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account.”

 

Additionally, their CEOs run to Congress when subpoenaed and testify. In India, their In-country representatives ignore, delay and hide behind US Mgmt. I have nothing else to add. 

 

Its language that is used means same thing. It’s people fault that they are poor in English. For example- when UK, US say Our air force was used in bombing enemies strategic target It means they bombed civilian area. But when some other country does it, Its called indiscriminate targeting of innocent civilian population including a hospital compound which is war crime as per Genova convention.

 

So, people need to educate/well verse themselves about vastness of English language .

[Trichromatic]

23 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I don’t why you are dragging this, but just to humor you.

 

https://faq.whatsapp.com/general/security-and-privacy/information-for-law-enforcement-authorities

 

Read US legal process requirements and then International Legal Process Requirements. They have added the following caveats

 

”

Additionally, we will assess whether requests are consistent with internationally recognized standards including human rights, due process, and the rule of law. A Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty request or letter rogatory may be required to compel the disclosure of the contents of an account.”

 

Additionally, their CEOs run to Congress when subpoenaed and testify. In India, their In-country representatives ignore, delay and hide behind US Mgmt. I have nothing else to add. 

 

 

Dragging this because a false claim was made that whatsapp shares messages data in developed country.

 

Even in USA they can share name, IP address which are not encrypted.

 

Quote

• A valid subpoena issued in connection with an official criminal investigation is required to compel the disclosure of basic subscriber records (defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 2703(c)(2)), which may include (if available): name, service start date, last seen date, IP address and email address.

 

In which country does whatsapp share the message data? 

[mishra]

@Trichromatic UK and US don’t allow anyone anything without their say. Read the story i posted, it says organisation sharing data are not supposed to disclose that they are sharing Data as per blanket order. and its for every organisation.

 

 As per some old UK law, you can not snoop people but if one end of communication is abroad, you can. Meaning UK person on whatsapp talks to another UK person on whatsapp, but since it goes via a US based server, It becomes lawful. What a logic. And who is allowed to collect every data over internet, a minister.

Edited May 28, 2021 by mishra

[Trichromatic]

10 hours ago, mishra said:

^ I dont know how much you or other icfers understand the basics but , what is a encryption? In lay mans terms, say person A is sending a letter/content to person B,  Post office has decided to put this letter in a locked box which can not be opened. and only post office has the keys with which they open the box and give the letter once letter has reached the intended recipient.

 

So what if govmnt want to check and verify what is content. It has to request whatsapp to open the box and tell them content. Now whatsapp is foreign organisation and Govmnt cant trust it fully as it may or may not open and show the content. ie govmnt is at its mercy and it definitely doesnt trusts whatsapp or any organisation. Its absolutely right as whatsap may not show some info.

 

What Govmnt is saying is share a duplicate key or make another opening with which, if need be, Govmnt officials can  open the box and see whats in there. They are also saying that this activity of gvmnt officials opening the box will be used exceptionally with due legal or national security teams actions.

 

Now this is not same as individual privacy, where whatspp is sharing name and address of sender and reciever and reading the data and telling other organisations those details or doing analytics to say other organisations what senders and recievers are generally interested in.

 

That's incorrect explanation of encryption. 

[Trichromatic]

On 5/27/2021 at 10:41 PM, MechEng said:

Big Tech is full of entitled Bay Area crowd who think they own the world because they have the smartest people working for them.

 

That's how some people pass comments against Ambani/Adani in India.

[Trichromatic]

9 hours ago, mishra said:

Just in case in past, If a CIA agent contacted someone in India over phone or letter, Govmnt of India had ability to listen in phone or open the letter and read it before delivering. If Some Agent or someone else was communicating within India, or some illegal thing happening within India, Govmnt and agencies tried to tap in phone or intercept the communication.

 

I tell you real issue here. Whatsapp and others most likely have shared the keys or solution to key with US at the same time running analytics on communications and may be covertly sharing that report too with US. Thats why EU pitched in with those privacy laws and these people including google made so much noise. If they share the key with India it becomes a issue for them. But government is saying for messgs coming and going or within India, It should be given a key. Its demand is nowhere as EU, as it knows it cant do a jackshit about what US and whatsapp share.

 

Is there any basis for this or is this just pure guess. How will whatsapp share key in first?

[ravishingravi]

 

[Trichromatic]

9 minutes ago, mishra said:

That was laymans language. Its not saying that each messge is divided by a algorith into text and each text is further wrapped into 2k, 4k false varius french german whatever language boxes so it may take ages for you to identify which boxes  actually have the real message and real message is turned into Mandatin whike others.  And what language the message is written in.

 

Now, How do you decrypt it, just like the way other a provider does it. For example when cloud computing was initially introduced, if someone lost the key, he lost abilty to access his own VMs. So, what did we do, we created a backdoor entry, Just incase someone lost it, we will enter anyway.  Only time it becomes impossible for us is when customer uses a specific key he owned to encrypt certain part of his data and we weren’t told about it. I know our company position is we can’t decrypt it but , i wont sure be about it. I suspect some corer in our organisation we have people who know what to do in case push comes to shove.

 

In case of SM, Its not that end user is allowed abilty to create its own key and encrypt the message. Both encryption and decryption algorithm is within the providers software. 

Even in layman's term, that was fundamentally wrong. 

[coffee_rules]

5 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Even in layman's term, that was fundamentally wrong. 

The lockbox xplained in layman's term