Fans need to understand England approach will not work for Indian team.

[maniac]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

TBH we aint even good at this safe appraoch, NZ does it better then us . 

Firstly I think our understanding of the problem is wrong. Let me answer some questions and may be you have a different answer.

 

What has been Indias weakness  traditionally : Bowling

 

Do we  have quality bowlers now capable of running through sides: Yes

 

How many frontline bowlers minimum do you play in any format: my answer is at least 4, waiting for your answer.

 

Now do we have at least 4 frontline top class bowlers fast and spin  : Yes

 

Now can any of these 4 bat: Not to even save their lives.

 

That leaves us with 7 batsman to do the job Because compromising on bowling for batting is stupid in any format.

 

Now let’s look at 5-7: Pant, Pandya and Jadeja May be. Pant is world class, role is wicket keeper  and a left hander to boot and I think we all can agree he can play the modern game. Pandya should be our no.4 but at 6-7 he will be more miss than hit and that is the nature of that role and he doesn’t have the body of work to give confidence to get us out of crisis situations. Do you think top 3 can breathe easy to play high risk that Pandya is next when there are 17-18 overs to go? Then there is Jadeja- self explanatory on his LOI batting. 
 

That leaves us with 4: the current no.; candidates are all rookies trying to establish themselves be it Iyer,Sky, Kishen etc etc. Rahul too is not a guaranteed starter.

 

Now there is too 3: Dhawan is dispensable no doubt and I think he takes more high risk than Kohli or Rohit at the start comparatively anyway.

 

Now then we have the pillars of our batting Ro and Ko.

 

Tell me if these 2 guys get out slogging how confident we will win in most games? 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by maniac

[ShoonyaSifar]

Kohli is the best T20 batsman in the world? Hello! 2017 was 4 years ago.

 

In recent times, he has been content with 35-40 ball 50s derailing the team totally and in the Dhoniesque way of taking the games deep. (remaining not out to boost his average). Most of his high scoring  knocks in last two years have had minimal impact on the team's successes. We have been largely saved because Pandya, Pant, Jadeja on various occasions have stepped up at critical junctures.

 

Kohli is at best an accumulator now (like Dhoni of post 2013-14). Unless he gives up his captaincy, he isn't going to be the freak LOI batsman he was earlier.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

What has been Indias strength traditionally : Bowling

traditionally batting has been our strength

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Now do we have at least 4 frontline top class bowlers fast and spin  : Yes

 

Now can any of these 4 bat: Not to even save their lives.

 

bhuvi can

 

6 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

That leaves us with 7 batsman to do the job Because compromising on bowling for batting is stupid in any format.

 

Why isnt ashwin n rahul chahar in our lineup ?? currently better spin bowlers then Kulcha

Thakur can make it in side in certain conditions as bowler- 2 pace wkts n longer grounds 

 

Since we started with bowling well , let me break we dont even play right bowling combination in LOI

[maniac]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

traditionally batting has been our strength

 

 

 

apologies meant weakness

[ShoonyaSifar]

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

Firstly I think our understanding of the problem is wrong. Let me answer some questions and may be you have a different answer.

 

What has been Indias strength traditionally : Bowling

 

Do we  have quality bowlers now capable of running through sides: Yes

 

How many frontline bowlers minimum do you play in any format: my answer is at least 4, waiting for your answer.

 

Now do we have at least 4 frontline top class bowlers fast and spin  : Yes

 

Now can any of these 4 bat: Not to even save their lives.

 

That leaves us with 7 batsman to do the job Because compromising on bowling for batting is stupid in any format.

 

Now let’s look at 5-7: Pant, Pandya and Jadeja May be. Pant is world class, role is wicket keeper  and a left hander to boot and I think we all can agree he can play the modern game. Pandya should be our no.4 but at 6-7 he will be more miss than hit and that is the nature of that role and he doesn’t have the body of work to give confidence to get us out of crisis situations. Do you think top 3 can breathe easy to play high risk that Pandya is next when there are 17-18 overs to go? Then there is Jadeja- self explanatory on his LOI batting. 
 

That leaves us with 4: the current no.; candidates are all rookies trying to establish themselves be it Iyer,Sky, Kishen etc etc. Rahul too is not a guaranteed starter.

 

Now there is too 3: Dhawan is dispensable no doubt and I think he takes more high risk than Kohli or Rohit at the start comparatively anyway.

 

Now then we have the pillars of our batting Ro and Ko.

 

Tell me if these 2 guys get out slogging how confident we will win in most games? 

 

 

Again this analysis fits the pre-2019 WC scenario.

 

Go back to the recent LOI series - vs Aus in India, in NZ and Aus, vs ENG. The lower order Rahul, even Iyer (in NZ), Pandya, Jadeja, Pant, Shardul haslve been our saviours. Kohli has accumulated lots of runs but has hardly finished matches except when playing vs WI

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

Now let’s look at 5-7: Pant, Pandya and Jadeja May be. Pant is world class, role is wicket keeper  and a left hander to boot and I think we all can agree he can play the modern game. Pandya should be our no.4 but at 6-7 he will be more miss than hit and that is the nature of that role and he doesn’t have the body of work to give confidence to get us out of crisis situations.

 

A . in LOI stokes is as hit n miss player as anyone , in t20 he has been a complete miss 

B. In those position players will be hit n miss even if u take - maxwell, pollard, pooran, russell, stokes, carrey (when u have no time to get ur eye in n u hve to play strokes well ur bound to suffer inconsistency ) . In the history ull find very less player being consistent in those position- dhoni, hussey, bevan , klusner.....rare cases. Coz those position are more about impact

C. The amount of time our top order waste n lil time they leave for others will make anyone insconsistent

D. If you check pandya last 10-11 games he has hardly been a miss - these are his scores

 

46

45

0

7*

32

90

28

92

1

35

64

 

 

8 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Do you think top 3 can breathe easy to play high risk that Pandya is next when there are 17-18 overs to go? Then there is Jadeja- self explanatory on his LOI batting. 

Do u think bottom 3 can be consistent when  top order doesnt leave time for them but leaves all the dirty work to do 

Didnt pandya n Jadeja took india to 300+ in australia when around 25 overs were left 

[Lord]

Sundar needs to be considered as frontline spin option in India

 

Sundar+Jadeja  will be good enough in these conditions.

 

Otherwise we can add a main spinner to this and play 2 pacers+ Pandya

[Ankit_sharma03]

17 minutes ago, maniac said:

Tell me if these 2 guys get out slogging how confident we will win in most games? 

So quick scoring can only be done by slogging ???

Bairstrow, roy, ABDV, butler slog ???

 

• the amount of dot balls rohit plays if he just started taking single na it will make 15 run diff easily, thank god he covers up but thats all good when ur at peak in golden form but that is not permanent. With dhoni same happened, all this taking the game late worked till he was in control of his game but once he started loosing it it became a liability 
• Kohli- if anything he has become slower n slower over the years in middle over
• Our middle is so better now then that when we had rayudu, rahane, raina, dipping dhoni n **** jadeja 

Frankly they arent even doing what best they can 

[Ankit_sharma03]

21 minutes ago, maniac said:

Tell me if these 2 guys get out slogging how confident we will win in most games? 

 

When was the last time u saw indian series ??? 2019 ??? Coz in last 2-3 its middle order that has saved us

 

In Nz- Iyer n Rahul

In Aus - Pandya and Rahul, jaddu (one one inning)

When aus came here- KL Scored runs 

When eng came - KL scored , pant n pandya also

When WI came- KL, Pant, iyer scored with others

 

If anything our middle order has been very good in last 2 yrs

[Ankit_sharma03]

25 minutes ago, maniac said:

That leaves us with 4: the current no.; candidates are all rookies trying to establish themselves be it Iyer,Sky, Kishen etc etc. Rahul too is not a guaranteed starter.

 

KL at no. 5 avg 56 with a s/r of 113

thats outstanding , if he aint permanent with this well its a tragedy 

 

In t20 he is our 2nd best batsman 

 

25 minutes ago, maniac said:

Now there is too 3: Dhawan is dispensable no doubt and I think he takes more high risk than Kohli or Rohit at the start comparatively anyway.

 

Now then we have the pillars of our batting Ro and Ko.

 

 

those 2 are just wasting to much time and leaving to much dirty work for others and among them kohli has faced a dip in his form.

This mentality of being safe has made indian cricket never reach its potential - What iff....negative mindset to begin with , another reason why captains like dhoni worked wonders coz he was a risk taker at his peak n what if wasnt a thought for him. 

 

What if a collapse happen ??? So what are top 3 called best in world ?? Not able to score in tough situation neither aim for 400 despite having all talent in world. 

Safety is just a poor mindset India n Aus are going through which is why they aint winning tournaments 

[maniac]

9 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

When was the last time u saw indian series ??? 2019 ??? Coz in last 2-3 its middle order that has saved us

 

In Nz- Iyer n Rahul

In Aus - Pandya and Rahul, jaddu (one one inning)

When aus came here- KL Scored runs 

When eng came - KL scored , pant n pandya also

When WI came- KL, Pant, iyer scored with others

 

If anything our middle order has been very good in last 2 yrs

Firstly that is not a counter to my argument, I never said Indian middle order is useless or incompetent. Even guys like Pandey,Rayudu,Jadhav,DK,Iyer etc would walk into most world teams X1.

 

In most games if my memory serves me correct they got us to 280-300 ish totals max. For that they had to play carefully and not like England’s approach and that exactly is my point too.

 

Now on the other hand if one of our top 3 fires we have easily gotten to 330-350 and sometimes more and more often than not it was our middle and lower middle that couldn’t lift that score to 400.

 

What is the moral of the story: it’s our bowling that has bailed us out in wins where our top

order failed or it took one of our top 3’s knock to win us the game. I would agree with you if our middle order players were getting us to 350 type scores when top order failed. The last time I saw that happen was with that Dhoni-Yuvraj partnership vs England. If we have a peak Dhoni-Yuvi-Raina then I have no doubt Rohit-Dhawan can play high risk like Sehwag. In fact the only guy in Indian team who can hit 150+ bowling for 6’s and 4’s consistently is Rohit and to some extent Kohli. 

so again back to my point, our bowlers are our heroes more often than not and we can’t ignore them and when bowlers got hopeless pitches it was our top 3 that got the job done. While our middle order is not incompetent they are not reliable either.
 

@ShoonyaSifar guess it covers your point also.

[ThirtyD.]

Even their back up team played with an intent and kept up the scoring rate despite losing wickets. In the end it took them to a winning total. This is the point, play with an intent; going into a shell of block-a-thon at the sight of losing couple of wickets ensures nothing but an almost guaranteed loss.

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

What is the moral of the story: it’s our bowling that has bailed us out in wins where our top

 

Actually its been our middle order who has bailed us out in lat 2 yrs- KL, iyer, pant, pandya, jadeja all at different point

Even in t20 our side has started to look different when sky, kishen, pant were bought in XI in last series 

 

No point talking about bowling for batting approach , its just an excuse for personal records. 2011 batting didnt have that great a tail either . Its a big myth in indian cricket that its top 3 or nothing , in our top 3 one is not in form and another is on his last leg....better we move on from this myth

 

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

order failed or it took one of our top 3’s knock to win us the game. I would agree with you if our middle order players were getting us to 350 type scores when top order failed.

 

that again wont happen that easily coz top order even on 100/4  sitation end up wasting 25 overs and after that getting 250 in 25 overs is nonsense 

IF they want players to be in that position that they need to give them time n opportunity. As gambhir says if u bat at 7 ull bat like no.& , the minute pandya was send up twice in 2 series against Aus he turned out to be our most consistent batsman. In last 2 yrs when our top order didnt fire its guys like KL, iyer, who stepped up. 

 

How hard is it to get no one can score if u dnt give opportunity, The examples ur giving of yuvi n all ...remember in their early days our top order was struggling 

As sachin was going through elbow issues

Ganguly was dropped

Gambhir was struggling to earn a place

Sehwag always was inconsistent 

 

So yuvi, dhoni had all opportunity in the world. .....players will never evolve with less opportunity . Rohit n kohli wud have been as big hit n miss players as anyone had they kept batting at 5-7. 

Player learn to score big with time n experience

 

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

The last time I saw that happen was with that Dhoni-Yuvraj partnership vs England. If we have a peak Dhoni-Yuvi-Raina then I have no doubt Rohit-Dhawan can play high risk like Sehwag. In fact the only guy in Indian team who can hit 150+ bowling for 6’s and 4’s consistently is Rohit and to some extent Kohli. 

Peak raina was no consistent either 

No dhawan n rohit cant play sehwag kind of game, sehwag was a lesser ODI player then them but he use to start fast which these guys dont....only shaw n pant can bat like sehwag

 

These are some random bull crap theories that u or any oldschool fan or even our Oldschool TM keeps telling themselves . Simple if aint working repeating it is foolishness....this team shud be a champion side instead it isnt and that in itself is a failure

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Firstly that is not a counter to my argument, I never said Indian middle order is useless or incompetent. Even guys like Pandey,Rayudu,Jadhav,DK,Iyer etc would walk into most world teams X1.

 

In most games if my memory serves me correct they got us to 280-300 ish totals max. For that they had to play carefully and not like England’s approach and that exactly is my point too.

 

Now on the other hand if one of our top 3 fires we have easily gotten to 330-350 and sometimes more and more often than not it was our middle and lower middle that couldn’t lift that score to 400.

 

What is the moral of the story: it’s our bowling that has bailed us out in wins where our top

order failed or it took one of our top 3’s knock to win us the game. I would agree with you if our middle order players were getting us to 350 type scores when top order failed. The last time I saw that happen was with that Dhoni-Yuvraj partnership vs England. If we have a peak Dhoni-Yuvi-Raina then I have no doubt Rohit-Dhawan can play high risk like Sehwag. In fact the only guy in Indian team who can hit 150+ bowling for 6’s and 4’s consistently is Rohit and to some extent Kohli. 

so again back to my point, our bowlers are our heroes more often than not and we can’t ignore them and when bowlers got hopeless pitches it was our top 3 that got the job done. While our middle order is not incompetent they are not reliable either.
 

@ShoonyaSifar guess it covers your point also.

A lot of what you are writing is perception. Till 2019 WC, it was all about our top 3. It's changed since then.

 

Let's see some numbers (ODIs)

 

Between CT 2017 and 2019 WC

 

Our top 3: 60 matches, 9414 runs@60, SR of 95, 38 100s, 40 50s (outstanding, simply best in the world by some distance despite lack of aggression at the top, Eng were number 2 with 6400 runs@50, SR of 103, 22 50s and 26 50s)

 

Middle order (4-8): 60 matches, 5010 runs@31, SR of 84, 1 100 and 24 50s  (we had the worst middle order, even BD middle order had better record)

 

Since 2019 WC

 

Our top 3: 18 matches, 2365 runs@47 with a SR of 93 (decent numbers but not as dominant as earlier. BTW even Pakistani top order has done better , though vs weaker opposition)

Middle order (4-8): 18 matches, 2519 runs@47, SR of 110, 3 100s and 19 50s, best middle order in the world. We have hit 20% more 4s and 6s than any other team!

 

See the contrast? We have a much more solid and explosive middle order, this despite there being so much chopping and changing while the top 3 remain safe and are not willing to bat lower at any cost.

Edited July 10, 2021 by ShoonyaSifar

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

 

 

thats how a champion side like Aus played in 200s pre t20

 

 

 

[maniac]

2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

 

These are some random bull crap theories that u or any oldschool fan or even our Oldschool TM keeps telling themselves . Simple if aint working repeating it is foolishness....this team shud be a champion side instead it isnt and that in itself is a failure

I enjoy England approach or WI batting when their hacks come off more than anything.

 

Again you got my point all wrong. I am not saying we should not go with the dynamic approach or it is wrong. All I am saying is we don’t have the combo to do that and we have the next best alternative or an equally effective approach that works for us given our talent pool. Again there is nothing wrong with our talent pool, we are getting gun batters and bowlers but unfortunately none of them are multi dimensional cricketers and the ones we get like Dube,Shankar,Krunal Pandya, none of them are the quality of guys like Sam Curran, Mo Ali or Chris Woakes.

Edited July 10, 2021 by maniac

[Ankit_sharma03]

52 minutes ago, maniac said:

I enjoy England approach or WI batting when their hacks come off more than anything.

 

Again you got my point all wrong. I am not saying we should not go with the dynamic approach or it is wrong. All I am saying is we don’t have the combo to do that and we have the next best alternative or an equally effective approach that works for us given our talent pool. Again there is nothing wrong with our talent pool, we are getting gun batters and bowlers but unfortunately none of them are multi dimensional cricketers and the ones we get like Dube,Shankar,Krunal Pandya, none of them are the quality of guys like Sam Curran, Mo Ali or Chris Woakes.

 

I get what ur saying but this is an excuse and ill break it down how 

 

First ill talk about batting (now ull ur point is bottom -4, wait will come on that )

 

Batting - this theory has been going on since dhoni days when we had rayudu, rahane, done n dusted raina, declined dhoni , declined yuvi , crappy jaddu and backups were guys like Gurkeerat mann  , binny and few others. I still take that time and also in that time Dhawan, rohit, kohli in top 3 were kind of in their 1st 5 yrs. So taken ...but now no way. 

• Ever since pandya came our totals have improved by 20-30
• When pant played last series he increased tempo in middle overs
• KL at has played some stunning knocks and his s/r is 113 at 5 which is remarkable , he may start slow but goes big in last 

So if u divide innings in 2 phases 25-25, our last 25 have improved but our top 3 are still batting same way infact kohli has become slower in middle overs. So are u  telling with so much better players now they still wanna play safe. These guys are still scoring at 5 in first 125 overs. Reality is these 3 arent pushing themselves for over all team strategy n leaving too much for last 25.

Fine u dnt wanna go at england pace but atleast try to better urself from going 5 to 6 atleast or above.  About collapses well again Rahul, iyer, pant, pandya , jadeja has done pretty well in last 2 yrs when top 3 has fallen. 

 

Bowing - yes those guys have better multi dimension players, but lets 1st do what we can in our ability . Such things can be worked out by using right players in right position n sitiuation. Our situation isnt as hopeless as people make out. If your permanent players arent giving u solution then use horses for courses n matchups.....strategize is the name of the game

 

• Ashwin n Rahul chahar are currently better then kulcha, so play them both bat better then Kulcha .  thats a bit of improvement
• Thakur is a good bowler in certain situation like bigger grounds n 2 pace wkts...so play him as bowler n hence u bit more batting depth on certain days. 
• Ashwin n bhuvi are very decent 8,9 . If we arent playing right players then its just excuses 
• Siraj isnt a bumrah or chahal with bat either and he is becoming an All format bowler so atleast some thing better 
• If jadeja struggles at 7, bat him up.....he become potent with  bat when he has time....but TM will never learn
• If top 3 has become stale - change one 
• Make a mix of left right combination- this will make bowler commit more error hence more bad balls . This alone will increase our RR 

 

If their is a problem look for solutions specially with the depth we have. To keep repeating same thing again n again and expecting a different result is foolishness. Fair enough we dont have archer, rashid, woakes in bottom 4 but atleast 1st maximize our resources. If in last 5 yrs adding pandya n KL has helped our totals on many occasion imagine getting other positions right. Yes we cant have 10 batsman with batting ability but atleast try 8 which frankly is enough for 50 overs. 

 

Coming onto Krunal, dube , shankar ....did we even use them correctly. 

• Krunal isnt a 50 overs bowler, Axar is better . Krunal is better in t20 and has performed too but he isnt their.....its just brainless selection
• Shankar- he is a middle order batsman not a lower middle order hitter ( misused)
• Dube- well we tried n he didnt work that will happen ...not every player will click

 

In this post only i must have counted so many wrong selection or players playing at wrong spots . If these guys arent working then look for right players....how did it take so much time to get in sky in t20 and we kept wasting time on guys like Manish. We kept telling that crap as an excuse to us for years in t20 and the minute we got SKY n kishen our t20 side looked something else. 

 

As i said its just an excuse , if you start fixing it the situation will improve massively 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[R!TTER]

17 hours ago, maniac said:

Watching 8-9 batsmen of England C and their technique and batting ability, England can afford to go boom boom till 4-5. Obviously 8-9 won’t bail you out every time.

Yeah & when the pitch has something in it, or a lot of spin, England's approach will bomb badly! How are people forgetting they actually won the WC on a technicality? If hand of (un)Godly goals was a farce this was an even bigger farce 

 

England's a flat track track bully & nowhere near the best LO sides ever, like Oz or WI 

[R!TTER]

11 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Kohli has accumulated lots of runs but has hardly finished matches except when playing vs WI

Pssst don't mention Brat, otherwise you know who will appear 

[Dery]

England ho ya Zimbabwe/ Afghanistan VK & Bumrah will shitr the bed in deciders