Aadhar services - What's the point of calling it services

[coffee_rules]

12 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

 

I quoted the post which claimed this. You're contradicting yourself.

 

 

 

Would be great to understand how did BJP address privacy concerns which they were flagging as opposition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Old discussion, will have to dig back, will do it. As I said, we are repeating it

[urbestfriend]

Privacy is a joke...! Probably google knows 10x more than what aadhar can reveal about you. Yeah, if you are a crook who earns in lakhs yet have a BPL card, you may be tracked by the government...Only way you can escape now is to use cash but covid has made the cash economy difficult.. 

 

 

[bharathh]

IMO Aadhar is one of the most important programs that the govt of India has undertaken.

 

The base necessity of a person today is his/her identity. Without ascertaining a person's identity it is almost impossible to be sure of any initiative that the govt wants to run. Forget the govt - this is a platform that can be taken advantage of by corporates, individuals and entities. There is no further requirement to ascertain a person's identity with the Aadhar because it includes a person's transactional identities such as Name, Address, Gender etc. along with permanent identities such as the biometrics of a person. How is the Aadhar different from the other programs is a common question that is asked.

 

1. It is a reboot on the existing modes of establishing identify that has been created with tech underlying its creation. How do I know you ask? Because the company I work for is one of the main vendors working on the implementation of the project. The amount of tech that goes into cross-referencing all the parameters required to establish the identity is one of the most advanced systems out there globally. Can it be gamed? Yes. Is it gamed? Of course. But there are measures constantly that are being worked on to make it as fool proof as possible. For example - facial recognition is being added to the biometric scans. The kind of tech that is being used to minimize gaming of the system is pretty cutting edge. 

 

2. An identity is like an infrastructure upon which other things can be built on as mentioned above. A PAN for example - does not include a person's permanent identities such as the biometric scans nor transactional ones such as the address. Same for the license, etc. A passport does most of the above - but does not have all these features built in to identify a person.

 

There are some great presentations on this by the UUDAI team.. would request you to watch those to understand how they are tackling things such as the security and privacy aspects of this. There are great strides being made on this. I am not allowed to talk more on this - but I can say that a lot of work is going into making it secure and safe to use.

[Real McCoy]

1 hour ago, urbestfriend said:

Privacy is a joke...! Probably google knows 10x more than what aadhar can reveal about you. Yeah, if you are a crook who earns in lakhs yet have a BPL card, you may be tracked by the government...Only way you can escape now is to use cash but covid has made the cash economy difficult.. 

 

 

 

So what you're saying is "google knows more about you anyway. why don't you give more of the privacy to a system that is connected to every important aspect of life in India". That's more like telling a girl she's slept with some guy and he left her already, so why don't you sleep with another guy. Everyday your comments make you look ridiculous.

 

6 minutes ago, bharathh said:

IMO Aadhar is one of the most important programs that the govt of India has undertaken.

 

The base necessity of a person today is his/her identity. Without ascertaining a person's identity it is almost impossible to be sure of any initiative that the govt wants to run. Forget the govt - this is a platform that can be taken advantage of by corporates, individuals and entities. There is no further requirement to ascertain a person's identity with the Aadhar because it includes a person's transactional identities such as Name, Address, Gender etc. along with permanent identities such as the biometrics of a person. How is the Aadhar different from the other programs is a common question that is asked.

 

1. It is a reboot on the existing modes of establishing identify that has been created with tech underlying its creation. How do I know you ask? Because the company I work for is one of the main vendors working on the implementation of the project. The amount of tech that goes into cross-referencing all the parameters required to establish the identity is one of the most advanced systems out there globally. Can it be gamed? Yes. Is it gamed? Of course. But there are measures constantly that are being worked on to make it as fool proof as possible. For example - facial recognition is being added to the biometric scans. The kind of tech that is being used to minimize gaming of the system is pretty cutting edge. 

 

2. An identity is like an infrastructure upon which other things can be built on as mentioned above. A PAN for example - does not include a person's permanent identities such as the biometric scans nor transactional ones such as the address. Same for the license, etc. A passport does most of the above - but does not have all these features built in to identify a person.

 

There are some great presentations on this by the UUDAI team.. would request you to watch those to understand how they are tackling things such as the security and privacy aspects of this. There are great strides being made on this. I am not allowed to talk more on this - but I can say that a lot of work is going into making it secure and safe to use.

 

Base necessity of any human is not their identity. Its food, water, clothes and shelter. The identity of a person is already maintained by several ids like PAN, ration card, voter id, driver's license, passport, bank pass book, etc. What is now happening is aadhar is used as a supplement not a one id that will replace them all which was promised. Even one id if properly implemented is dangerous to the society and nation at large. Just like you said these things can be "gamed"

1. infosys - nobody cares about the tech aspect if the ultimate goal of the project is surveillance. and they did a shitty job of doing it as is expected of infy and other body shopping companies. @Jimmy Cliff reboot is close to reset, no?

2. ah but DL and PP do the same biometrics. so no need for aadhar, no? pan to cover other aspects with the aadhar, still these documents are needed to open bank accounts, tax documents, etc.

You are acting like a spokesman for aadhar with your ties to infy I guess we are supposed to look over the ties nilekani has with gates who is tied to wef and its own ties to modi, RaGa and other governments of the world.

[Real McCoy]

16 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

forget the noise, I have first hand experience. When I used to visit India earlier, it was tough to get a SIM card and I had to rely on family members to get me one. Now, after living in India, got aadhar card for all my family, and now I am able to buy land, property., stocks etc and even, get SIM card seamlessly. Life is more convenient. 
 

What privacy concerns? Indians dry their underwear in their balconies, privacy concerns is a joke. 

 

So you're equating privacy concerns to drying underwear You need to use the aadhar to get to a doctor first. According to aadhar rules, only an NRI with Indian passport can get an aadhar. But I know several guys who have settled abroad and surrendered their passport who have aadhar All those things you mentioned buying land, property and stocks are still the same. I don;t know about SIM cards but these things are still a hassle. 

[bharathh]

If you want to do business - base requirement is that you are who you say you are. If you want a loan - you have to identify yourself. If you want to buy a house - you have to identify yourself. If you want to get treated in a hospital you need an identity.

 

So identity nowadays is essential.  If you can live without interacting without anyone living on a farm making food yourself you probably don't need to establish your identity. I doubt that is so. All the identities you mentioned are not universally accepted across India due to some issue or the other. As I mentioned - the UUDAI is built ground up to become a universal ID. Please read up a little if you want more details. There are plenty of papers and technical presentations on how these things work and how the tech infrastructure is constantly evolving.

 

According to your logic, money is dangerous too - should we stop using it? Cars and planes can be converted into bombs - should we stop using them? An identity in India is important. Aadhar is not universally accepted yet. It will at some point. IMO it is far superior to what exists now and will be a crucial part of our identity. Btw I didn't understand the Infosys bit.

[Real McCoy]

My issue is why the need when you can do these identification without aadhar. And even with aadhar, you need to provide other identification documents from the past. Also this universal id concept is dangerous and leads us to totalitarianism. I don't want to read up on BS papers and tech presentations. You tell me how aadhar "services" us. I don't see any marked improvements in my life. Both me and others go through it only because its mandatory and consider it a nuisance.

Since you said your company works as a main vendor for aadhar, I assumed its infy. dont dodge my question

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Real McCoy

[bharathh]

A list of all the countries today with national ID cards. A lot of countries here are not totalitarian. Not sure how you are equating the two. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country

 

In the US the SSN is mandatory for all citizens to be eligible to get a paycheck (unless you get paid cash). What is totalitarian about it? You need SSN to get unemployment benefits and other govt scheme related issues. It is not the primary mode of ID though. You still need to furnish other forms of ID to establish yourself. Why is it still getting used and enforced on ppl when they are born then? 

 

No I don't work for Infy. What is your question? You have asked a bunch of rhetorical questions in your prev post. 

 

 

[Real McCoy]

There were many opponents to the SSN in the US. US is a democracy in name only. In reality, it is tightly controlled than India. Atleast in US, they give out some bread crumbs for poor people from time to time to keep them away from rioting. In the great make benefit nation of India, the ration card is done away with. Its only for people who earn less than 1 lakh per annum. 1 Lakh per annum is not enough to lead a family of four. So low end workers have no means for even cheap provisions.

You are wrong when you said someone needs to furnish other forms of ID in the US. SSN and a driver's license is enough to get by in US. Look I don't want to delve into your occupation ok. I only mentioned it because you claimed to have worked for the project and used that to claim aadhar is fool proof when its not.

[bharathh]

I never said the Aadhar is fool-proof right now. No system is. I said that it is a great leap forward from our existing id systems. The tech behind it is improving all the time and it is trying to fill as many gaps as possible. I am just trying to let ppl know that the govt is putting a lot of effort behind trying to make this system as fool proof as possible. I find that ppl are dismissive of everything that the govt does - just due to personal politics - with no understanding of how this actually works.

Regarding ration cards - where is it getting taken away? It is anyway under a state govt's jurisdiction. The centre cannot do away with it as it doesn't come under the centre in the first place. 

 

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

Bill Gates and the Population Control Grid

 

Watch this from around the 20 min. mark to understand the real intentions behind having a Biometric ID like Aadhaar. As the guy says, while they are selling this as a means of "financial inclusion" i.e. a way to get the poorest population access to financial services/subsidies it is actually meant to be a system of financial exclusion where the Gobarmints/payment providers can stop any transaction or throw out anyone from the financial system as and when they see fit. All this while they continue the relentless war on Cash and bring in more and more restrictions online. 

[bharathh]

Are you saying it is easy for anyone to get a loan or be part of the financial system without a biometric system?

 

Cash is the primary mode of storing unaccounted wealth. In India we have a system where ppl want the govt to be clean but want a system that enables them to evade taxes and hide their wealth through cash. That is what demonetisation has removed to a large extent. We need to move to digital payment systems where ppl cannot hide their dirty little secrets while crying about the state of the country.

[Yoda-esque]

Wait for the days when every human has a chip injected...

[Real McCoy]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Bill Gates and the Population Control Grid

 

Watch this from around the 20 min. mark to understand the real intentions behind having a Biometric ID like Aadhaar. As the guy says, while they are selling this as a means of "financial inclusion" i.e. a way to get the poorest population access to financial services/subsidies it is actually meant to be a system of financial exclusion where the Gobarmints/payment providers can stop any transaction or throw out anyone from the financial system as and when they see fit. All this while they continue the relentless war on Cash and bring in more and more restrictions online. 

There are "people" here who evade this issue and start talking about accountability, transparency, etc, Biggest problem here is surveliannce, financial exclusion. Obviously those who is working on the aadhar project isn't gonna talk bad about it as its their cash cow. They will only realize it when it hurts them but by that time it will be too late

[bharathh]

Pls tell me how a common villager today is included in the financial system. How do we ensure that professionals who can earn through cash such as doctors, businessmen (especially small and medium size businesses), real estate developers etc. pay their due taxes. How is their actual revenue visible?

 

I am sure there may be issues with the Aadhar system but the pros outweigh the cons. And no - if my company does not work on it - we hardly lose much revenue. However, we are proud to be part of a revolutionary digital initiative like this. The kind of tech involved is exciting and one of the most sophisticated that we work on.

[bharathh]

6 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

There are "people" here who evade this issue and start talking about accountability, transparency, etc, Biggest problem here is surveliannce, financial exclusion. Obviously those who is working on the aadhar project isn't gonna talk bad about it as its their cash cow. They will only realize it when it hurts them but by that time it will be too late

It is easy for people to pooh-pooh something they don't understand or want to.

 

Facebook, Amazon, Google and Apple have far more data on each of us than any govt combined. And they have no reason other than self-imposed ethical reasons to be careful with it. And yet I don't see that stopping anyone from signing up for accounts with them. If the govt doesn't know who are actual citizens in their own countries - how on earth are they supposed to do anything for them? 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, bharathh said:

I never said the Aadhar is fool-proof right now. No system is. I said that it is a great leap forward from our existing id systems. The tech behind it is improving all the time and it is trying to fill as many gaps as possible. I am just trying to let ppl know that the govt is putting a lot of effort behind trying to make this system as fool proof as possible. I find that ppl are dismissive of everything that the govt does - just due to personal politics - with no understanding of how this actually works.

Regarding ration cards - where is it getting taken away? It is anyway under a state govt's jurisdiction. The centre cannot do away with it as it doesn't come under the centre in the first place. 

 

 

You work for NIC?

[bharathh]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

You work for NIC?

Nope.. 

[Real McCoy]

25 minutes ago, bharathh said:

It is easy for people to pooh-pooh something they don't understand or want to.

 

Facebook, Amazon, Google and Apple have far more data on each of us than any govt combined. And they have no reason other than self-imposed ethical reasons to be careful with it. And yet I don't see that stopping anyone from signing up for accounts with them. If the govt doesn't know who are actual citizens in their own countries - how on earth are they supposed to do anything for them? 

Those accounts are not mandatory dummy. aadhar is. If aadhar identifies citizens, then how come bangladeshis have aadhar. you don't get it do ya. or are you doing a pr for the firm you work for

[bharathh]

When the state govt of Bengal is complicit in getting people across the border IDs and setting them up with all the requisite requirements for IDs - it is quite easy to circumvent. How do I know so - our maid for 7 yrs was Bangladeshi. She told us how easy it is for Bangladeshis to come into India and get all the required IDs with the help of the govt in Bengal. She used to keep hopping back and forth into Bangladesh on her annual trips back home. These folks are sheparded all around India in ghettos where a few people take a cut of their incomes. The women typically work as maids or in low level jobs while the men are pulled into "collection" services or are generally made useful to their overlords.

 

I don't think you understand anything I am saying in the first place. So keep your insults to yourself. What we have in the upcoming Aadhar is better than anything we have currently. There is a lot of good tech going into it. I have never mentioned my company or done anything to promote my company in the first place so I don't understand where the PR bit comes from. Perhaps you have a hard time accepting that you don't know much about this system and are just talking based on some hearsay and conspiracy theories. Don't agree with what I say - fine. But don't talk rubbish about a very good system without knowing anything about it. 

 

Also - answer my question - how are people included in the financial system right now? Aadhar is not mandatory. How does a common villager avail himself/herself of even the LPG subsidies they are allowed to atm? They may not even have ration cards let alone an Aadhar. Do they even know that something like this is available to them? How does a common farmer get a loan in the current scenario? He goes to ppl in Arthiyas and others who give him cash at exorbitant interest rates. Because it is in cash they don't have to record it. They can charge and do whatever they wish to.

 

My example of facebook et al was nothing to do with IDs. It was to show the hypocrisy that people show when gladly spouting personal information to big tech companies while crying hoarse when the govt is trying to figure out who is actually a citizen of the country. Privacy is a holy cow - except when you get a free email and other services which is parsed and analyzed the second you start typing by the company providing it.