The players didn't want to play.

[sandeep]

Just now, maniac said:

let me ask you this. In Srilanka half our team was isolated. We had to put together scraps to play in the last 2 games. We lost to Srilanka D. We know the circumstances under which we lost but still it counts as a loss in the records book for us and a win for Srilanka. Is that unfair?

 

How is this situation drastically different?

 

Now I understand Indian teams concern obviously. The situation is there for all to see but why can’t England say this isn’t our problem?

 

I am not taking sides or playing the devils advocate here  here but a genuine question.

Those players had not been on tour for 4 months.  With a high pressure world cup coming up shortly.

 

 

You are making flawed comparisons.  

 

Bottomline is this - Given covid protocols, Indian players absolutely had a right to put their personal safety front and center.  And there is nothing wrong in doing so.

 

And you are chest-beating a lot about the book event - the bottomline again is this - the event was not a violation of the agreed upon rules and protocols for the tour.  Even the ECB Chairman was present at the event.  And there is zero definitive evidence that the COVID outbreak in the Indian staff originated in the book launch.  It could have, but it could have just as easily started with Shastri being infected in one of the stadiums via some other person.  

 

I get that you are disappointed at the cancellation, we all are.  But separate your personal feelings from the facts of the matter.  Or try to.

[goose]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

let me ask you this. In Srilanka half our team was isolated. We had to put together scraps to play in the last 2 games. We lost to Srilanka D. We know the circumstances under which we lost but still it counts as a loss in the records book for us and a win for Srilanka. Is that unfair?

 

How is this situation drastically different?

 

Now I understand Indian teams concern obviously. The situation is there for all to see but why can’t England say this isn’t our problem?

 

I am not taking sides or playing the devils advocate here  here but a genuine question.

i'm in the same camp. these are difficult questions!

[kepler37b]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

And you are chest-beating a lot about the book event - the bottomline again is this - the event was not a violation of the agreed upon rules and protocols for the tour.  Even the ECB Chairman was present at the event.  And there is zero definitive evidence that the COVID outbreak in the Indian staff originated in the book launch.  It could have, but it could have just as easily started with Shastri being infected in one of the stadiums via some other person.  

 

I get that you are disappointed at the cancellation, we all are.  But separate your personal feelings from the facts of the matter.  Or try to.

 

Where did you find this?  Not seeing this anywhere. 

 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

 

Where did you find this?  Not seeing this anywhere. 

 

 

 

 

[goose]

35 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

It all boils down to choice - why is it incumbent on Indian players to take personal risk - health or financial, when the COVID protocols clearly empower them to choose? 

 

I don't care about optics or how its perceived - I'm not in the business of putting out PR - I'm just sharing my perspective.  

 

Put it this way, if the tables were turned do you think ECB or England players would ever hesitate prioritizing personal safety, for a hot second?  

these are difficult questions. as nasser said, bio bubbles are not sustainable, and as atherton said, neither is pulling out of a series due to covid. maybe we just need to reflect and be grateful we had 4 matches.

[maniac]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

 

You are making flawed comparisons.  

 

 

 

 

the comparison seems flawed because there isn’t a standard protocol or process for these situations.

 

England starts the tour of SA and return midway due to the covid cases. Everyone agrees to postpone it. 
 

Then Pakistan tours Nzl,Pak players test positive for Covid early on but enough time for players to be isolated. Series goes on as scheduled.

 

IPL and PSL get postponed and concluded later due to rising covid cases

 

India tour of Srilanka goes on as scheduled and is completed with all the problems. India plays whoever they have available.

 

So you have to pick which scenario is applicable here. It is confusing because there isn’t any definitive backup plan for these scenarios.

 

However I feel if India had 11-12 fit players who can take the ground, they should play the game. As simple as that, if not if the other team asks for forefit, while it is not sportsmanly, I think it is fair.   

Edited September 10, 2021 by maniac

[sandeep]

Just now, goose said:

these are difficult questions. as nasser said, bio bubbles are not sustainable, and as atherton said, neither is pulling out of a series due to covid. maybe we just need to reflect and be grateful we had 4 matches.

Its hard to be 'grateful' when you are just freshly KLPD-ed - I'm assuming you know that wonderfully evocative phrase means - the way we all have been today.

 

Its just that the factual bottomline on the matter is absolutely unambiguous - the players did nothing wrong, and there isn't an "blame" to be assigned.  Not on the players, not on Shastri attending some event - none of that can be somehow twisted into a breach or violation of protocols.  

 

The outcome is terrible - sure, but this risk was omnipresent in the pandemic age we find ourselves in.  Allowing the ECB or English media/fanbase to obfuscate that fact, and somehow point a bigoted finger at Indian players or administration, to insinuate that it was those greedy brown men and their IPL that caused this, is just wrong. 

[kepler37b]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

 

I would wait for some time to confirm this..

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

England starts the tour of SA and return midway due to the covid cases. Everyone agrees to postpone it. 

That's not accurate - CSA was very upset at the cancellation, as they were when Australia cancelled their tour.  In  both those cases, ECB and CA opted to act or 'hide behind' player safety and got away scot-free with it.  There is not much difference in those cancellations and what has happened here.  

 

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

However I feel if India had 11-12 fit players who can take the ground, they should play the game. As simple as that, if not if the other team asks for forefit, while it is not sportsmanly, I think it is fair.  

 

Its not about "fit" or "unfit".  Its about ongoing risk to further contract COVID - personally, and to family members.  You are either being intentionally dense - as I often see you do, for the purposes of an argument - or are just not getting a very simple and obvious point.  Not sure, asking a 'genuine question'.

[sandeep]

Just now, kepler37b said:

I would wait for some time to confirm this..

How about we wait for "some time" to confirm whether Shastri definitively contracted COVID at this dirty book launch, and not from some stadium staff? 

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

 

Its not about "fit" or "unfit".  Its about ongoing risk to further contract COVID - personally, and to family members.  You are either being intentionally dense - as I often see you do, for the purposes of an argument - or are just not getting a very simple and obvious point.  Not sure, asking a 'genuine question'.

Learn to debate without starting to attack personally. You seem to get flustered and get your chaddis in a twist and get aggressive whenever someone has a different opinion from you as well. Is it possible for people to have a different perspective?

 

I don’t know why but you seem to have this irrational and often funny urge to prove this weird nationalism. 
 

Indian management messed up. At the end of the day English team has 0 cases and Indian team management is isolated. Same was the case in Srilanka. Is there a conspiracy here?

[kepler37b]

Just now, sandeep said:

How about we wait for "some time" to confirm whether Shastri definitively contracted COVID at this dirty book launch, and not from some stadium staff? 

 

Crowded, closed locations are incubators for covid. He is much more LIKELY to get covid from book launch than from ground staff. Are you denying science?

[kepler37b]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Indian management messed up. At the end of the day English team has 0 cases and Indian team management is isolated. Same was the case in Srilanka. Is there a conspiracy here?

 

Precisely.

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

 

Crowded, closed locations are incubators for covid. He is much more LIKELY to get covid from book launch than from ground staff. Are you denying science?

I'm not denying 'science', or the probability.  Just that its not definitive.  And even if he caught it there, the agreed upon protocols for the test series, did not stop Shastri and co from attending said event.  What I am denying, is the unfair assignation of blame.

[coffee_rules]

ECB is winning the PR wars. Look at the message from their CEO. 
 

https://www.deccanherald.com/sports/cricket/perception-of-what-might-happen-caused-cancellation-not-covid-outbreak-ecb-ceo-1029051.html
 

not outbreak, but jitters caused cancellation. Made Indians looked weak.

 

Dongre is being made the fall guy for Shastri-Kohli book launch fiasco

 

 

[Serpico]

17 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Its not about "fit" or "unfit".  Its about ongoing risk to further contract COVID - personally, and to family members

Players are within their rights to not play the match. But breach of contract is still a breach. Would you have agreed if England players went back after the Chennai match and say they won the series 1-0?

[sandeep]

14 minutes ago, maniac said:

Learn to debate without starting to attack personally. You seem to get flustered and get your chaddis in a twist and get aggressive whenever someone has a different opinion from you as well. Is it possible for people to have a different perspective?

 

I don’t know why but you seem to have this irrational and often funny urge to prove this weird nationalism. 
 

Indian management messed up. At the end of the day English team has 0 cases and Indian team management is isolated. Same was the case in Srilanka. Is there a conspiracy here?

 

 

The irony of "getting chaddis twisted".   What exactly is a "personal attack"?  

 

You are all too eager to conclude that "Indian mgmt messed up" - like that mother who always tends to assume that its her bratty kid's fault and starts slapping him before bothering to find out the facts.  

 

Ignorantly claiming that players ought to have played T5 "if they were fit", while dismissing the real and present risks and complications to individual players, and their families' safety - that is exactly what I describe it as - ignorant.  I'm not calling you "ignorant", but your argument.  If you are not able to separate the 2, then you are either being intentionally dense, or not able to appreciate a simple point. Up to you.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Players are within their rights to not play the match. But breach of contract is still a breach. Would you have agreed if England players went back after the Chennai match and say they won the series 1-0?

 

A breach is when you 'violate' a contract - not when you exercise a clause that protects personal safety.  

 

Fabricating silly hypotheticals is just that.  

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

 

 

Ignorantly claiming that players ought to have played T5 "if they were fit", while dismissing the real and present risks and complications to individual players, and their families' safety - that is exactly what I describe it as - ignorant.  I'm not calling you "ignorant", but your argument.  If you are not able to separate the 2, then you are either being intentionally dense, or not able to appreciate a simple point. Up to you.

How are they putting their families at risk then they have been tested negative and so have the opposition  ?

 

Am I missing something here?

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by maniac

[Serpico]

Just now, sandeep said:

breach is when you 'violate' a contract - not when you exercise a clause that protects personal safety

None of the players tested positive. They could have taken the decision after further tests and if someone tested positive. I doubt the contract says indian players can call off the series anytime they feel worried