26/11 Attacks - Reflections

[goose]

forgive me if this sounds insensitive, but genuine question from an 'outsider'. what troubles those living in India more, the failings and aftermath of 26/11 or the handling of covid?

[ravishingravi]

54 minutes ago, goose said:

forgive me if this sounds insensitive, but genuine question from an 'outsider'. what troubles those living in India more, the failings and aftermath of 26/11 or the handling of covid?

 

What's the correlation ?  One is healthcare issue and other is terrorist attack. 

[Clarke]

1 hour ago, goose said:

forgive me if this sounds insensitive, but genuine question from an 'outsider'. what troubles those living in India more, the failings and aftermath of 26/11 or the handling of covid?

 

Which do u prefer, atom bombs or charity ?

 

If it costs 5 billion pounds a year to maintain Britain's nuclear defences & 75 pounds a year to feed a starving African child, how many African children could be saved from starvation if the ministry of defence abandoned nuclear weapons ?

 

Source

[goose]

9 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

What's the correlation ?  One is healthcare issue and other is terrorist attack. 

 

both lead to loss life. both effect our way of life. the goverment's primary role it to protect its citizens and their way of life.

 

 

[goose]

7 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Which do u prefer, atom bombs or charity ?

 

If it costs 5 billion pounds a year to maintain Britain's nuclear defences & 75 pounds a year to feed a starving African child, how many African children could be saved from starvation if the ministry of defence abandoned nuclear weapons ?

 

Source

 

are you saying it's not an either or situation?

[Clarke]

3 minutes ago, goose said:

 

are you saying it's not an either or situation?

 

Are u kidding me ? I can easily wear a mask, keep distancing & clean my hands regularly.

 

Does that mean I should also be ready to counter Kalashnikov & grenade carrying terrorists that are keen to murder me on the streets of my city ?

[goose]

16 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

Are u kidding me ? I can easily wear a mask, keep distancing & clean my hands regularly.

 

Does that mean I should also be ready to counter Kalashnikov & grenade carrying terrorists that are keen to murder me on the streets of my city ?

 

eh. i'm not sure i ever implied that. i simply asked when assessing the performance of your government, what matters to you most? pandemic response or fighting terrorism. of course you want your leaders to be competent at both, but where do your priorities lie at the ballot box? for example here in the UK, Boris Johnson took policy decisions that directly led to 25,000 avoidable deaths, and he continues to mismanage the pandemic. i'm not sure it can get any worse that. Trump and Bolsonaro did similar. in fact i think Bolsonara is be charged with crimes against humanity. differences of policy on whether we should fight the Taliban in Aghanistan so that we can save 50 lives next year pale into insignificance. what is it in our human make up that gives leaders a free pass. i just find it curious.

 

[MechEng]

37 minutes ago, goose said:

 

eh. i'm not sure i ever implied that. i simply asked when assessing the performance of your government, what matters to you most? pandemic response or fighting terrorism. of course you want your leaders to be competent at both, but where do your priorities lie at the ballot box? for example here in the UK, Boris Johnson took policy decisions that directly led to 25,000 avoidable deaths, and he continues to mismanage the pandemic. i'm not sure it can get any worse that. Trump and Bolsonaro did similar. in fact i think Bolsonara is be charged with crimes against humanity. differences of policy on whether we should fight the Taliban in Aghanistan so that we can save 50 lives next year pale into insignificance. what is it in our human make up that gives leaders a free pass. i just find it curious.

 

 

Preventing terror attacks is of a higher priority, because ordinary people are not armed with weapons to fight terrorists.

 

Controlling viral outbreak is not possible, you can take the best measures as a government or as people but the rest depends completely on natural phenomena.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by MechEng

[ravishingravi]

1 hour ago, goose said:

 

both lead to loss life. both effect our way of life. the goverment's primary role it to protect its citizens and their way of life.

 

 

Ah. So you once we divorce context and intent from final result, I suppose it doesn’t matter if you are in India or outside. Death is all but loss of life and people have been dying for ages and so will we. 

[straighttalk]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:10 PM, Vilander said:

 

Did you expect bollywood style footage? Lol 

 

Sufficient proof has been released by Indian armed forces. There are several detailed discussions on this matter elaborating disinformation campaigns from vested interests in defence forums. 

 

 

No bollywood style footage is needed only to further the narrative and fool the public, boost the morale with some bombs that would level the buildings instead of making "three holes".

 

A simple satellite image which neutral countries have provided would have sufficed or even aerial pictures showing the damage. Not some fancy stories of weapons that  kill 300 terrorists and not have any visible damages. All these narrative of disinformation campaigns by allies of India are hogwash which only the die hard BJP fellas will believe. Fact is in the fog of war, misses happen. That is ok...not something to belabor as the intent was there. Next time we will get them.  I do not believe the BJP paid media narrative and trust the opposite as all evidence points to that. You are free to believe the reverse. I do not see any chance in changing your opinion.

 

But imagine under Congress, your pilot gets paraded. Supposedly next superpower India defending its skies with 70s era planes. Shooting down its own helicopter. Cannot distinguish between helis and F16s. This level of incompetence is really shameful when the whole world new Pakistan will retaliate. Also, Pakistan fired at a military establishment, lets not forget Modi did not have the guts to retaliate.

[goose]

37 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Preventing terror attacks is of a higher priority, because ordinary people are not armed with weapons to fight terrorists.

 

Controlling viral outbreak is not possible, you can take the best measures as a government or as people but the rest depends completely on natural phenomena.

 

 

interesting. i would argue the vast majority of the population will never need to fight terrorism though. effective pandemic response on the other hand does rely on government decree. covid is terrorism. inflicted on us by the universe. some governments have made better decisions than others.

[straighttalk]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:06 PM, Vilander said:

 

May be you should explain this more, One could argue that Indian defence acquisition and posture against a combined China Pak two front is not the same as Paks defence acquisition and posture under Chinese umbrella. But nothing more than that. Defence preparedness is not just acquisition it has org and communication angle political will international relations etc. India can sustain a pretty long two front war, it will be suicidal for Chinese goals if they get entangled into a war with India esp along with Pakistan. 

 

1. India is conventionally stronger than Pakistan and weaker than  China. My comment was that India : Pakistan is not as bad as China: India.

 

2. Against Pakistan, we really do not care about them if they stop sponsoring terrorism. We have a stated objective of retaking POK although I suspect that people there are not favorably disposed to India.  Inspite of enjoying extreme economic superiority and definitely a conventional edge, we  have failed to attain this objective. The most rationale explanation is the nuclear umbrella. As nuclear weapons are a great equalizer, let us assume that nuclear weapons are not used.

 

3. Can India retake POK in a war? Can India conquer Pakistan? History said that we failed in 1971. During Kargil war, we did not attack Pakistan even though we had every right. So not all decision is based on cowardice but realpolitik. Look at where Pakistan is since 2008. A lot has to do with India's soft power, handling, and operation. Compare that with the Operation Parakram and Kargil war - governments decision. Which is better and more effective?

 

4.  Can we do it now? Let us see if Modi tries it in 2024 before the elections. I think without nuclear weapons, we might be able to do so but at a tremendous cost. In the mountain regions of POK, the defenders will have a huge advantage. So in all practical purpose, we cannot achieve our strategic goal.

 

5. Without considering two front, China is simply at a different league compared to India. It is my belief that their expansionist policy will eventually target India after Taiwan and South China sea unless they lose that war with US. What is China's strategic goal: salami slicing key peaks and taking  Arunachal Pradesh. I think they can achieve both as Modis India as well as Congress India has shown perfectly incapable of defending the same.  Arunachal Pradesh - probably wont be able to control the plains.

 

Can they conquer India? That is not their strategic goal and they will fail as they cannot bring the mechanized armor through Himalayas. It is the Himalayas that is our biggest asset that will prevent us from being overrun as man to man we can fight pretty well but lack the political will. The disparity in air power and land machinery will be neutralized by the mountain peaks. Similarly India will be a defensive Navy and have an advantage on the sea.

 

6. In terms of a two front war. If China is able to base their Navy in Pakistan and bring their tanks/planes in Pakistan, which I think they might do, then it is going to circumvent a lot of the issues mentioned above. I do not think India has the capability to defend such a scenario for a long duration. But very few countries can do so against China. Luckily we have the nukes to ensure that this does not happen. By our own analysis, we are severely down on aircrafts and Navy for a war against China itself, let alone two front.

 

 

 

 

[straighttalk]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:25 PM, dial_100 said:

 

Indira = 20xModi

Stand up to US and China

65 & 71 war

Recapturing of PoK

Balakot

Galwan 

Kargil misgovernance

Modi is incapable

Get Nitish, Patnaik

and bhakta bhakta ... bhakta

 

My comprehension is so bad that in your entire essay, I couldnt related anything to 26/11 and how the $uck RSS was responsible for it and inept response by congress in 2008. 

 

I would easily discuss every single point in your post if you find all the respective discussions we have on this forum for them until then and especially on this thread, try and respond something more relevant to this topic first.

 I was merely responding to your attempt to paint Congress as root of evil and BJP or specifically Modi as the savior of Hindu pride by pointing out that inspite of all the rhetoric BJP has a similar track record of cowardice and gross mismanagement which is hampering our armed forces.

 

Both sets of politicians are bad but since there are more BJP moutpieces everywhere, it needs to be recorded that Modi aint going to save us.  Blowing some trees before election and not going after ISI or Pak army is equivalent to saying they are non state actors. Why didnt he retaliate when Pak bombed our military installation and shot down our aircraft. The whole world saw our pilot paraded and he had his stooge try to refute satellite images with some stories of killing 300 people. Even IAF did not mention any casualties. Such mismanagement that we shot down our own heli thinking it is an F16. Remember Operation Parakaram. Compared to that I will take Congress approach of 1971 or making Pak a pariah state after 26/11. 

 

What would a token attack on a Lashkar hideout achieve? Terror infrastructure would have still remained in place. We would have lost the international momentum and narrative would have changed to war instead of Pak being labeled as a terror sponsor. Ya it did not give us a cathartic release of emotion but it achieved a bigger strategic purpose.

 

 

 

[straighttalk]

23 hours ago, Vilander said:

Its down to you, I did not feel anything like that what I and many I spoke with felt is rage. Loved it when their terrorist camps got hit and roasted loved it more when their f solah went down fighting our least potent platform and loved and hated it it when our boy treated himself with dignity when he got captured by PoK residents. Loved it even more whne the handlers in that pic got picked out themselves in the ensuing months. This is a new age war not simple when the enemy hides behind collateral and woke liberal fifth column. Don't be their unwitting mouth piece by projecting how you personally felt.

Unfortunately, the bombs missed. Which happens. And we did not shoot down an F16 (there is no credible proof other than someone saying it). What we know for sure is our brave pilots had to fly antiquated jets and we  shot down our own heli. Only in India, will this be treated as a victory. Elsewhere, it is embarrassment that we did nothing when PAK shot at our military establishment while we took pains to explain that we are attacking nonstate actors and thereby buttress Pak claims that they do not officially sponsor terror. Attack ISI or PAK air force base next time and hopefully we dot miss.

[straighttalk]

3 hours ago, goose said:

forgive me if this sounds insensitive, but genuine question from an 'outsider'. what troubles those living in India more, the failings and aftermath of 26/11 or the handling of covid?

If you look at the number of deaths and the gross mismanagement, it is the COVID handling. Not because it could have been prevented but because we were not prepared and deliberately relaxed the laws as well as sent our vaccines to other countries. Lack of health care kills millions while 26/11 attacks are rare and has happened only once in our lifetime. 

 

It is governments responsibility to provide adequate health care to all and it is not just COVID but the deaths that happen for non Covid reasons too.

[Clarke]

11 hours ago, goose said:

 

eh. i'm not sure i ever implied that. i simply asked when assessing the performance of your government, what matters to you most? pandemic response or fighting terrorism. of course you want your leaders to be competent at both, but where do your priorities lie at the ballot box? for example here in the UK, Boris Johnson took policy decisions that directly led to 25,000 avoidable deaths, and he continues to mismanage the pandemic. i'm not sure it can get any worse that. Trump and Bolsonaro did similar. in fact i think Bolsonara is be charged with crimes against humanity. differences of policy on whether we should fight the Taliban in Aghanistan so that we can save 50 lives next year pale into insignificance. what is it in our human make up that gives leaders a free pass. i just find it curious.

 

 

There is a lot of nuance or dimensions when it comes to certain topics. In case of covid people are affected in various ways. A daily wage earner would see lockdowns & restrictions as debilitating. An ignorant joe (and there's a lot of them) would see the enforced mask mandate as an attack on their liberty. A regular mom/wife would be frustrated with the husband and kids being home and making a constant mess due to the restrictions. A middle class earner will complain about fuel prices & inflation despite the fact that govt has lesser revenues and more expenditures and has to struggle to make up so that future generations are not burdened with catastrophic debt & interest payments. All of these voters could essentially demand casualness from the govt as well as unlimited medical care & economic assistance in case they are affected.

 

This argument that leader X led to Y people dying is a naive way of looking at ground realities at least in case of India. One can argue about mistakes but not over-simplify the argument to the body bag count. 

[Vilander]

14 hours ago, straighttalk said:

Unfortunately, the bombs missed. Which happens. And we did not shoot down an F16 (there is no credible proof other than someone saying it).

Lol India is not a banana Republic. 

 

Indian airforce and army released necessary proof. On Balakot bombing if there was no damage done not sure why the area was cordoned off limits for journo lists for 6 months lol. I won't be posting on this more but there ar emany smoking guns here. Everyone can make their own beliefs but one thing for sure Indian army does not lie about its soldiers dying or wars it looses, neither does it change its point of view on doosra bandha in matters of hours lol .. 

 

This is osint

 

https://theprint.in/defence/8-pieces-of-clinching-evidence-that-show-how-iafs-abhinandan-shot-down-a-pakistani-f-16/278752/

 

 

[goose]

7 hours ago, Clarke said:

 

There is a lot of nuance or dimensions when it comes to certain topics. In case of covid people are affected in various ways. A daily wage earner would see lockdowns & restrictions as debilitating. An ignorant joe (and there's a lot of them) would see the enforced mask mandate as an attack on their liberty. A regular mom/wife would be frustrated with the husband and kids being home and making a constant mess due to the restrictions. A middle class earner will complain about fuel prices & inflation despite the fact that govt has lesser revenues and more expenditures and has to struggle to make up so that future generations are not burdened with catastrophic debt & interest payments. All of these voters could essentially demand casualness from the govt as well as unlimited medical care & economic assistance in case they are affected.

 

This argument that leader X led to Y people dying is a naive way of looking at ground realities at least in case of India. One can argue about mistakes but not over-simplify the argument to the body bag count. 

i don't understand why you say it's naive. i find it odd that the Indian government would have no influence over the death toll (reportedly 5 million plus)

[Clarke]

43 minutes ago, goose said:

i don't understand why you say it's naive. i find it odd that the Indian government would have no influence over the death toll (reportedly 5 million plus)

 

19 hours ago, goose said:

interesting. i would argue the vast majority of the population will never need to fight terrorism though. effective pandemic response on the other hand does rely on government decree. covid is terrorism. inflicted on us by the universe. some governments have made better decisions than others.

 

You must be a commie or super leftie, lumping all right wing leaders as murderers even though India's approach was different from UK/US/Brazil while giving a free pass to the original culprits in China. Missing the nuance between the countries as well as between terrorism & public health since the agenda seems to be right wing = bad.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Clarke

[goose]

13 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

 

You must be a commie or super leftie, lumping all right wing leaders as murderers even though India's approach was different from UK/US/Brazil while giving a free pass to the original culprits in China. 

I haven’t blamed the indian govt here. I just asked how much weight do Indians give to pandemic response at the ballot box. you say very little. I find that odd in any country

Edited November 29, 2021 by goose