Ravi Ashwin Interview discussion thread

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, sensible-indian said:

Wow lol.

 

I will put on some more stats here:

 

Performance of bowlers in 2014-15 Aus series (in games involving Ash)

 

Most wickets (our pacers were horrible this tour - run leaking machines except Ishant).

 

Slightly lesser average than Lyon (lol)

 

Way worse SR (due to Ash having to do the donkeys work due to pacer quality)

 

This was the TOUR when I knew he will rise up and do great things.

 

People saw the 48 average but they didn't see the CONTEXT behind it.

 

Aus 2018-19 tour:

 

We know what he did.

 

2nd innings he took 3 with injury.

 

Aus 2020-21 tour (games involving Ash)

 

 

lol.

 

Name one spinner in world cricket with this level of performance in Aus (not named Lyon).

 

To put it in perspective, PRIME Swann averaged 39 in 2010 Ashes series in Aus bowling with in form pacers and runs on the board.

 

I believe he has failed in 2 innings in his career. 

 

Joberg 2013 (defo his fault)

Centurion 2018 (even here there was an finger issue)

 

With that being said, if you want greatness, you need deliverables.

 

Injuries are unfortunate but greatness comes from performance.

 

In that aspect, Ashwin still has some way to go.

 

But from a performance point of view, a fit Ashwin is a damn good spinner in SENA from 2015.

 

Especially since 2016.

 

 

I have to say our one-dimensional unit is one reason. Our seamers cannot bat.  In 2000s it was not the case. Even Ishant could bat a bit.  Sehwag could bowl.

 

Take a look at this perth tets Irfan pathan batted at 3 and made 46 in the 2nd innings.  Also made 28.  He ended up winning the man of the match.  India won the test with just 4 main bowlers. 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2007-08-291320/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-291353/full-scorecard

[sensible-indian]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This betrays a singular lack of understanding the bowling of both these guys.  Jaddu is one of the smartest bowlers around in test cricket.  Very underrated. 

There is a reason why Jaddu is probably our greatest dead pitch bowler.

 

Even in Sydney, he saved our ass.

The flatter the pitch, the more valuable Jaddu becomes.

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

I have to say our one-dimensional unit is one reason. Our seamers cannot bat.  In 2000s it was not the case. Even Ishant could bat a bit.  Sehwag could bowl.

 

Take a look at this perth tets Irfan pathan batted at 3 and made 46 in the 2nd innings.  Also made 28.  He ended up winning the man of the match.  India won the test with just 4 main bowlers. 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2007-08-291320/australia-vs-india-3rd-test-291353/full-scorecard

Indeed.

 

We desperately need Vihari type players who can bat and bowl handy off spin / leg spin.

 

But in 2011 or 2015, our issues were deeper.

 

The bowlers were soooo bad, there was nothing that was possible.

Stat destruction was inevitable.

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, sensible-indian said:

Indeed.

 

We desperately need Vihari type players who can bat and bowl handy off spin / leg spin.

 

But in 2011 or 2015, our issues were deeper.

 

The bowlers were soooo bad, there was nothing that was possible.

Stat destruction was inevitable.

 

Yes. This is pathetic that our batsman never wanted to expand their skills.  Somebody had to tell them. Marnus/Smith both bowled in the Adelaide test.  Honestly despite extremely limited skill our lower order saved our ass more with their batting than top order with their bowling. I remember Vihari taking 2 or 3 wickets in England providing break through.

 

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports/cricket/article/virat-kohli-rohit-sharma-should-bowl-kapil-dev-wants-india-stalwarts-to-convert-into-all-rounders/810128

[vvvslaxman]

12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This betrays a singular lack of understanding the bowling of both these guys.  Jaddu is one of the smartest bowlers around in test cricket.  Very underrated. 

 

He is a clever bowler. Don't deny.  I was talking about skills, variety.  Jaddu's average speed is around 90 to 95.  Bit round armish.  Good to keep the player quiet on flat pitches and also prize out wickets. 

[rollingstoned]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Honestly despite extremely limited skill our lower order saved our ass more with their batting than top order with their bowling

LO has saved us with their batting too, as much if not more than our actual batting in recent times.

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

This is not the 2000s where Zaheer khan would get worn out and other support bowlers would bowl crap and be useless, spinners can eke out some fifer wickets.  We have 4 seamers always going to be sharing the wickets.  FOr instance Bumrah and Ashwin have played 10 SENA tests together look at their record

 

In the same tests

 

Ashwin 10 tests 36 wickets 28.47 average  

Bumrah 10 tests 36 wickets 30.00 average

 

 

 

Such comparisons will be valid only if Bumrah was to make a similar statement saying how great he is at working out batsmen. This thread is about that statement (the title has now been edited to a more generic one).

 

On the comparison itself, as you say in 10 tests with Ashwin, Bumrah has picked 36 wickets@30. In other 10 SENA tests without Ashwin, he has 48 wickets@20. Should we conclude that Bumrah is nearly 50% better when bowling without Ashwin (and his ability to work out batsmen as he himself says)?

[sandeep]

44 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I was talking about skills, variety.  Jaddu's average speed is around 90 to 95.  Bit round armish.  Good to keep the player quiet on flat pitches and also prize out wickets. 

 

Jadeja is a master practitioner of changing delivery angles and subtle changes in trajectory, pace and spin.  If he was just one dimensional then he wouldn't be able to keep top batsmen "quiet" on flat pitches, or "prize out" wickets. He has repeatedly dismissed top batsmen in the opposition by inducing mistakes.  Just because his variety doesn't include the overtly visible qualities of flight, drift; does not mean he does not have "variety" or "skills".  

[ShoonyaSifar]

58 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

But looking at the entire picture, a fit Ashwin is a damn good spinner in SENA from 2015.

 

Especially since 2016.

That's two qualifiers right there. At 35, he isn't getting any better fitness wise. Not surprised to see the TM not trusting him with the lone spinner's slot going by what happened in Eng and Aus in 2018 and again in Australia earlier this year.

 

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Some more stats

 

Since 2015, 

Our team bowling average with Ashwin: 13 tests, 201 wickets@30 (we won 3 of those tests + the Sydney masterclass on saving a test)

 

Bowling average when playing without Ashwin: 11 tests, 188 wickets@27 (we won 5 of these tests)

 

Do we bowl better as a unit and improve our winning chances without Ashwin in the line up?

[vvvslaxman]

15 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Such comparisons will be valid only if Bumrah was to make a similar statement saying how great he is at working out batsmen. This thread is about that statement (the title has now been edited to a more generic one).

 

On the comparison itself, as you say in 10 tests with Ashwin, Bumrah has picked 36 wickets@30. In other 10 SENA tests without Ashwin, he has 48 wickets@20. Should we conclude that Bumrah is nearly 50% better when bowling without Ashwin (and his ability to work out batsmen as he himself says)?

 

Since you talk about not being able to pick fifers when the wickets are being shared by 4 other bowlers as well,  you have to do a real analysis why it is difficult to do that instead of repeating the same "fifer" argument. Why do you think fifer is a gold standard. If that is the case Tendulkar not being able to score 500 in  series would make him a poor batsman?

[sensible-indian]

17 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

That's two qualifiers right there. At 35, he isn't getting any better fitness wise. Not surprised to see the TM not trusting him with the lone spinner's slot going by what happened in Eng and Aus in 2018 and again in Australia earlier this year.

 

 

2015 is not a qualifier.

 

Its the time he came onto his own.

 

Fitness is a qualifier.

[ShoonyaSifar]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Since you talk about not being able to pick fifers when the wickets are being shared by 4 other bowlers as well,  you have to do a real analysis why it is difficult to do that instead of repeating the same "fifer" argument. Why do you think fifer is a gold standard. If that is the case Tendulkar not being able to score 500 in  series would make him a poor batsman?

A 5-er's  closest batting comparable will a 150.

 

500 runs in a series will be equivalent to 25 wickets in a series. So come up with better arguments.

 

A 5-er, like a 100/150, is a milestone to showcase standout individual performance. As good as a 4-er is, it has a similar standing as a 70-80. A batsman regularly getting out for 70s and 80s is called out for inability to convert it into a bigger score. Likewise a 4-er, as good a performance as it is, isn't really a milestone.

 

Like I said for you Ashwin and Bumrah comparison, if Sachin during his playing days was to make bombastic statements like having easily worked out all the bowlers, he would open himself up for far more closer scrutiny and ridicule that such idiotic statements deserve.

Edited December 21, 2021 by ShoonyaSifar

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Some more stats

 

Since 2015, 

Our team bowling average with Ashwin: 13 tests, 201 wickets@30 (we won 3 of those tests + the Sydney masterclass on saving a test)

 

Bowling average when playing without Ashwin: 11 tests, 188 wickets@27 (we won 5 of these tests)

 

Do we bowl better as a unit and improve our winning chances without Ashwin in the line up?

 

That is a logic free argument. You could do the same with Bumrah. Since Bumrah's debut

 

India with Bumrah in SENA  averrage 25.14

India without Bumrah in SENA  average 22.24

 

So according to your logic we should leave out Bumrah. 

 

 

[sensible-indian]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That is a logic free argument. You could do the same with Bumrah. Since Bumrah's debut

 

India with Bumrah in SENA  averrage 25.14

India without Bumrah in SENA  average 22.24

 

So according to your logic we should leave out Bumrah. 

 

 

This is the issue with stats.

 

Once we start playing around with it, all kinds of erroneous results come up.

 

Like Rahane was the HIGHEST averaging batsman in the 2015 SA series.

Edited December 21, 2021 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

A 5-er's  closest batting comparable will a 150.

 

500 runs in a series will be equivalent to 25 wickets in a series. So come up with better arguments.

 

Like I said for you Ashwin and Bumrah comparison, if Sachin during his playing days was to make bombastic statements like having easily worked out all the bowlers, he would open himself up for far more closer scrutiny and ridicule that such idiotic statements deserve.

 

It is much easier to score a 500 runs in a series than 25 wickets in a series you realize that ? Second of all it is much much harder to take a fifer with current seam-oriented Indian bowling unit than scoring 500 runs in the 1990s and 2000s. Ridiculous comparison

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, sensible-indian said:

This is the issue with stats.

 

Once we start playing around with it, all kinds of erroneous results come up.

 

Example - Rahane was the HIGHEST averaging batsman in the 2015 SA series. lol.

 

His argument is entirely based on numbers not the actually how well they bowl. 

[ShoonyaSifar]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That is a logic free argument. You could do the same with Bumrah. Since Bumrah's debut

 

India with Bumrah in SENA  averrage 25.14 - it is 27, 20 tests, 330 wkts@27

 

India without Bumrah in SENA  average 22.54  it is 32, 3 tests, 46 wkts@32

 

So according to your logic we should leave out Bumrah. 

 

 

Will you stop inventing facts out of thin air?

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Yes. Jadeja/Axar they just fire it in regardless of who bats. Yes there is no real set up. so to speak.  But you have to be very accurate for long period. Kuldeep/Ashwin are skill based bowlers. They may go for runs. But they are likely to create more opportunities. At the end of the day when you are down to picking who is better, you back the skillful bowlers. But unfortunately it is not straightforward with this current Indian unit. Batting completely relies on lower order bailing us out. That makes the batting ability of bowler (especially spinner) a vital factor.  Not like Ashwin is a terrible batsman. Lyon is even worse batsman than Ashwin. He is a regular because their seamers like Cummins/Starc can bat. 

Yes, the selection of Jaddu is partly attributable to his superior batting and fielding skills, but it ignores his subtle variations (pre-injury). After the injury, he has not looked convincing.

 

Ultimately, a good team management would pick the right bowlers for the right conditions. there are instances - for example, on tracks with zero spin - where the spinner should play a purely holding/defensive role, in which case likes of axar and jaddu may warrant selection over ashwin. and of course there are situations where the opposite is feasible too.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Vijy

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Jayant Yadav has spent time with Ash in Chennai.  That speaks volumes about the character of both of these guys.

glad to see that. I liked jayant when he first came on to the scene, especially his compact lower-order batting. he has looked pretty rusty with bat and ball this series, but hopefully he can improve further.