"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

[Majestic]

49 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

In this ERA with this bowling line up of India not many spinners in the world will have spectacular numbers. There is no way spinners will have a chance to outbowl all 4 seamers in SENA.  Besides how can you say Ashwin failed in New zealand. He has played a grand total of one innings in New zealand.  3 for 99. In that match he comfortably outbowled Bumrah and Shami.   Technically only one place where he was not that effective was South Africa.  With 4 dropped chances of Ashwin's bowling in one innings in SA probably did not help his stat. Otherwise he is better than a 50 average bowler in SA.  You don't have enough sample or context to run him down.  Even in the most recent series  South Africa hardly used Maharaja.  In Test championship final also there was zero scope for any spinners. Yet he bowled decently.

He needs to produce a couple of memorable performances away from home vs top teams to be considered an ATG.

 

Every single ATG will have some memorable performances away from home vs top teams. Ashwin doesn't have any memorable performance vs top teams away from home aside of Melbourne 2020 where Rahane and Bumrah were as pivotal as Ash. Ash needs to have standout performances vs top teams away from home to become an ATG.

[putrevus]

17 minutes ago, Majestic said:

He needs to produce a couple of memorable performances away from home vs top teams to be considered an ATG.

 

Every single ATG will have some memorable performances away from home vs top teams. Ashwin doesn't have any memorable performance vs top teams away from home aside of Melbourne 2020 where Rahane and Bumrah were as pivotal as Ash. Ash needs to have standout performances vs top teams away from home to become an ATG.

Your calling Kumble's 8 wicket hhaul in Sydney as memorable one is bit too much. He was defending 705 runs ,it is like jadeja 6fer in SA.Just due to sheer number of overs bowled any bowler can pick that many pickets.

[Majestic]

Just now, putrevus said:

Your calling Kumble's 8 wicket hhaul in Sydney as memorable one is bit too much. He was defending 705 runs ,it is like jadeja 6fer in SA.Just due to sheer number of overs bowled any bowler can pick that many pickets.

A 8-fer is always a memorable performance especially if it is against a GOAT batting lineup on a flat wicket. Anyone arguing against it is talking absolute bullshit. It was a GOAT batting lineup playing at home.

 

Having said that, I still don't consider Kumble a true ATG, just that he is a more deserving than Ashwin who doesn't have any standout memorable performance away from home vs top teams.

[vvvslaxman]

17 minutes ago, Majestic said:

He needs to produce a couple of memorable performances away from home vs top teams to be considered an ATG.

 

Every single ATG will have some memorable performances away from home vs top teams. Ashwin doesn't have any memorable performance vs top teams away from home aside of Melbourne 2020 where Rahane and Bumrah were as pivotal as Ash. Ash needs to have standout performances vs top teams away from home to become an ATG.

 

That means he has to outperform pacers to register a win. I don't think that is even possible for any bowler with seamer oriented pitches overseas. You yourself have said Bumrah was the stand out. Who is likely to make an impact in Australia? Bumrah or Ashwin?  I don't think it is possible to have "stand out" numbers with the pace attack we have. 

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, Majestic said:

A 8-fer is always a memorable performance especially if it is against a GOAT batting lineup on a flat wicket. Anyone arguing against it is talking absolute bullshit. It was a GOAT batting lineup playing at home.

 

Having said that, I still don't consider Kumble a true ATG, just that he is a more deserving than Ashwin who doesn't have any standout memorable performance away from home vs top teams.

 

Agarkar has 6 fer. Which will automatically make him a GOAT. So did Dean headley. Both helped win match for their country.

[putrevus]

23 minutes ago, Majestic said:

A 8-fer is always a memorable performance especially if it is against a GOAT batting lineup on a flat wicket. Anyone arguing against it is talking absolute bullshit. It was a GOAT batting lineup playing at home.

 

Having said that, I still don't consider Kumble a true ATG, just that he is a more deserving than Ashwin who doesn't have any standout memorable performance away from home vs top teams.

Are you fricking serious, there was nothing memorable about that 8 wicket haul. Ashwin 3 wicket haul in Melbourne was far better than that 8 wicket haul. All Jumbo did was wheel away overs. Ashwin is already far better than Kumble ever was at any point in career. It is like calling Sachin's 241 as some great knock in the same match.

 

Ashwin is ATG by any standard.

Edited March 12, 2022 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

20 minutes ago, Majestic said:

A 8-fer is always a memorable performance especially if it is against a GOAT batting lineup on a flat wicket. Anyone arguing against it is talking absolute bullshit. It was a GOAT batting lineup playing at home.

 

Having said that, I still don't consider Kumble a true ATG, just that he is a more deserving than Ashwin who doesn't have any standout memorable performance away from home vs top teams.

 

There are only two GOATs. One with a dodgy action with no so stellar record in two of the most difficult countries to bowl at. Warne being a leggie and growing up in SENA and part of GOAT team automatically gave him a lot of advantages not just skill.  Leggies are always likely to do better in bouncier conditions. Murali was a freak who could turn ball on table top. SA/OZ was the real challenge. Duke ball was similar to SG. And in England you get places where you can do well with spin bowling. NZ was another weak side against spin back then.  He did well in SA. give it to him although didn't have to bowl to better players like AMla, ABDV in SA. And also a lone warrior for his side as they had zero bowlers to take wickets for Srilanka. He didn't exactly bowl with 4 top seamers. But the same Murali when played against better players of spin like Lara, Sehwag he was exposed. A reason why Murali could not do well in India despite having more suitable conditions than SENA. It is all about match up in a given era. In current era apart from Indians gifting wickets to Moeen Ali i don't think many teams surrender heaps of wickets to spinners in SENA.

[vvvslaxman]

34 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Your calling Kumble's 8 wicket hhaul in Sydney as memorable one is bit too much. He was defending 705 runs ,it is like jadeja 6fer in SA.Just due to sheer number of overs bowled any bowler can pick that many pickets.

 

Majestic gets carried away with raw stats a reason why he is putting a guy like Srinath as well. SENA numbers forgetting whole bunch of context with reference to his specific era. I happened to follow his career right through. 

[Majestic]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That means he has to outperform pacers to register a win. I don't think that is even possible for any bowler with seamer oriented pitches overseas. You yourself have said Bumrah was the stand out. Who is likely to make an impact in Australia? Bumrah or Ashwin?  I don't think it is possible to have "stand out" numbers with the pace attack we have. 

You need to understand an important point here. I very well get that he may not get a chance to take 5-fer or 6-fer there but then he also has a bowling average of 40 in SENA. Had it been a case of Ashwin not required to do much in overseas, he would have atleast had a good bowling average.

 

Look at Shami and Bumrah in India, they dont have 5-fers and 6-fers here but they are maintaining a great bowling average(Shami 21 and Bumrah again low sample). In Ashwin case, he is averaging 40 there which means he bowled enough overs there, got enough chances to pick wickets and make an impact but the result have simply not come in his favour. That is the difference ultimately. 

 

You have look at both side of the coin. It is not a case with Ashwin that he didn't got enough chances to pick wickets overseas but it is a case of him not able to make the impact in those conditions like he did vs lower tier teams like Sri Lanka or Windies( has fi-fers against them even though Bumrah and Shami are leading) but has no major standout performance or great average vs any top team away from home.

 

 

[Majestic]

27 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Are you fricking serious, there was nothing memorable about that 8 wicket haul. Ashwin 3 wicket haul in Melbourne was far better than that 8 wicket haul. All Jumbo did was wheel away overs. Ashwin is already far better than Kumble ever was at any point in career. It is like calling Sachin's 241 as some great knock in the same match.

 

Ashwin is ATG by any standard.

Based on the reading of your post, it is fair to conclude that your case is like "Bhains ke aage been bajana". There is no point having a discussion with you because you just like to back your favourites even though you look freakingly hillarious too. 

 

Fact is Ashwin is just a subcontinent track bully and far from an ATG. If he is an ATG then so are Vernon Philander and Mitchell Johnson.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Majestic

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

You need to understand an important point here. I very well get that he may not get a chance to take 5-fer or 6-fer there but then he also has a bowling average of 40 in SENA. Had it been a case of Ashwin not required to do much in overseas, he would have atleast had a good bowling average.

 

Look at Shami and Bumrah in India, they dont have 5-fers and 6-fers here but they are maintaining a great bowling average(Shami 21 and Bumrah again low sample). In Ashwin case, he is averaging 40 there which means he bowled enough overs there, got enough chances to pick wickets and make an impact but the result have simply not come in his favour. That is the difference ultimately. 

 

You have look at both side of the coin. It is not a case with Ashwin that he didn't got enough chances to pick wickets overseas but it is a case of him not able to make the impact in those conditions like he did vs lower tier teams like Sri Lanka or Windies( has fi-fers against them even though Bumrah and Shami are leading) but has no major standout performance or great average vs any top team away from home.

 

 

 

Why do you club all the countries together.  England uses duke. pitches are different. Didn't geta chance to play there at all. They are nothing like South Africa or Australia. They use kookaburra. NZ pitches are a completely lottery.  He has played only one innings there. Not enough to counterbalance hsi other performances in other parts.  Stop clubbing all 4 countries together like they all play on same pitches, same set of batsmen, same kind of ball, same kind of conditions.

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Why do you club all the countries together.  England uses duke. pitches are different. Didn't geta chance to play there at all. They are nothing like South Africa or Australia. They use kookaburra. NZ pitches are a completely lottery.  He has played only one innings there. Not enough to counterbalance hsi other performances in other parts.  Stop clubbing all 4 countries together like they all play on same pitches, same set of batsmen, same kind of ball, same kind of conditions.

Who are the top teams away from home in Ashwin's era? Which team shall I club together? This is getting hillarious now.

 

You want me to hype his away performance vs Sri Lanka and West Indies?? Yeah, then we will have 10-12 ATGs coming from each era.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Who are the top teams away from home in Ashwin's era? Which team shall I club together? This is getting hillarious now.

 

You want me to hype his away performance vs Sri Lanka and West Indies?? Yeah, then we will have 10-12 ATGs coming from each era.

 

Why didn't the same "top teams" perform in India lol They are not exactly top teams then. Apart from NZ last year nobody was a top team. 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Who are the top teams away from home in Ashwin's era? Which team shall I club together? This is getting hillarious now.

 

You want me to hype his away performance vs Sri Lanka and West Indies?? Yeah, then we will have 10-12 ATGs coming from each era.

 

For your information Srilanka beat a better SA in SA. India is yet to achieve that. They couldnt' do against an inferior SA.  Can our Indian side beat NZ in NZ like BD did? Not so sure. SO stop discrediting performance against all the teams. Windies in WIndies is a decent side as England found several times.

Edited March 12, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[putrevus]

24 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Based on the reading of your post, it is fair to conclude that your case is like "Bhains ke aage been bajana". There is no point having a discussion with you because you just like to back your favourites even though you look freakingly hillarious too. 

 

Fact is Ashwin is just a subcontinent track bully and far from an ATG. If he is an ATG then so is Vernon Philander and Mitchell Johnson.

It is exacly my sentiment for your arguments.Your arbitrary definition of greatness is amusing.Ashwin dominated all Asian teams home and away.When was Ashwin staked 700 runs as cushion in SENA.Yes he did,Ashwin comeup short in some matches in SENA. He  came up short in 2012 series in India also against England.Does it take away his greatness at home according to your definition of greatness.

 

Vernon Philander did well only in SA, NZ and England. Ashwin did not do well only in SA and Australia. If you expect Ashwin to dominate in SENA also then you are at fault.He has done holding job and as a support bowler very well.Mitchell Johnson never could sustain his greatness other than two years even in Australia.

 

 

The only place Ashwin completely failed is SA. he had some chances there and yet he failed.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by putrevus

[Vilander]

14 hours ago, Lord said:

average includes strike rate. WPM is useless if you give more runs per wicket. It only means no one to share wickets

Strikerate is number of balls bowled per wicket its an important stat, average is runs scored per wicket probably conventional wisdom is that its more important for spinners than pacers for whom the former is more important, but I feel all of them together gives a better picture for a casual fan but the best possible picture is knowing match situation and contribution which is often very difficult to summarise unless you are a professional or an expert in the area having spent resources tracking them for a particular player or team. Wpm is not useless if one gives less runs than opponent or have a frugal run restrictor in other end and they have a good strike rate meaning they spent runs in getting wickets quickly there are strike bowlers like that who were combined well for teams. So balanced look at all stats together is essential, so harbhajan had better returns than Ashwin in SENA meanwhile Ashwin is a legit goat contender in Asia along side Murali. So it's a wierd case for Ashwin even if he did OK job in SENA no one will have a problem accepting that he is a great bowler. I have often been frustrated following matches or series with him, a captain simply can't play him at the cost of a fast bowler or Jadeja when batting is needed because of his there or not there nature overseas. 

 

[Vilander]

Also may be if Ashwin can keep him mouth closed while not talking and try to be geneuinly nice to people and content, few more people in power would want to help him, him being a insufferable know it all twerp is an other minor problem. 

[Vilander]

16 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

South Africa did not even play in the 80s, 70s. How can we apply SENA filter to them.  When you have 4 fast bowlers and opposition have 4 fast bowler why do you expect s pinners to roll the opposition over? It is definitely not a challenge. If that is what the challenge is no spinners has conquered every part of the world.  Especially last 10 years apart from rare matches very few places spinners made more impact than seamers. Infact not a single match where neither Jaddu nor Ashwin play bigger role in winning matches in SENA. It would have been the case for any bowlers from the past if they had partnered these 4 seamers.  One sucked lesss. One sucked more. Both sucked with ball. Presuming that Bedi, Prasanna would outbowl Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Ishan or even Thakur is crazy extrapolation.

Why did all the spinners ahead of Ashwin have better numbers overseas, he is at the bare minium factually lesser in terms of returns. That's purely factual. 

[vvvslaxman]

21 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Why did all the spinners ahead of Ashwin have better numbers overseas, he is at the bare minium factually lesser in terms of returns. That's purely factual. 

 

Ashwin has better numbers than Shami in England and New zealand. Does that make him better than Shamin in these parts?

[Vilander]

38 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Ashwin has better numbers than Shami in England and New zealand. Does that make him better than Shamin in these parts?

What better numbers provide stats