Gyanvapi mosque in Kashi - whats going on?

[BacktoCricaddict]

Some really interesting debate, esp regarding R1A haplogroup.  For scientists pursuing basic research, the end game is the research itself - academic curiosity, if you will.  That is where I stand on this.  Just so much to learn and try to decipher. 

 

But, if that is not the end-game, then what is?  For instance, let's say that R1A, other genetics studies, and anthropological evidence together do indeed lead to scientific consensus against AIT, and for OOI.  What then?  How should we use this information?   In what way should it inform action for the welfare of all humanity?  

[ash]

41 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Mosque is not a holy site, it is a place for congregation and prayer. It can be built anywhere, they even pray on roads and airports. Why do they insist on praying in a site that was built on a the destruction of a temple , just for spite, to rub salt on the wounds of the majority  community ?

again separatist theories and us vs them. I think you are not an Indian. You cannot decide what is holy and what is not. You paint a picture as if the Muslim Indians built that mosque to spite. No they did not.  They did not suddenly start praying in that location, as far as they are concerned the mosque is with them for generations. 
 

Don’t forget, they are Indians not Mughals. If any Indian Muslim is destructing a temple now or anytime after 1947, I will support you. Else don’t try to break the country.
 

 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, ash said:

again separatist theories and us vs them. I think you are not an Indian. You cannot decide what is holy and what is not. You paint a picture as if the Muslim Indians built that mosque to spite. No they did not.  They did not suddenly start praying in that location, as far as they are concerned the mosque is with them for generations. 
 

Don’t forget, they are Indians not Mughals. If any Indian Muslim is destructing a temple now or anytime after 1947, I will support you. Else don’t try to break the country.
 

 

And I think you are a compatriot of Alum Rod. India didn’t spring up to existence on 1947. Muslims wanted Pakistan and it was carved out of blood . 
 

The Kashi Viswamath temple was destroyed multiple times and each time Hindus tried to rebuild it and finally Aurangzeb built a mosque . Indians have peacefully tried to regain the holy site with petitions to the Brits and then to the Secular governments. 
 

Read the SC judgement on Ayodhya when it ruled that a mosque is not essential Practice of Islam and it can be done anywhere. That is why a separate 5 acre land was given to Muslims to pray there. The reversal of status quo is what is irking leftists and secularists and are screaming victimhood of Muslims. 
 

Read more 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Some really interesting debate, esp regarding R1A haplogroup.  For scientists pursuing basic research, the end game is the research itself - academic curiosity, if you will.  That is where I stand on this.  Just so much to learn and try to decipher. 

 

But, if that is not the end-game, then what is?  For instance, let's say that R1A, other genetics studies, and anthropological evidence together do indeed lead to scientific consensus against AIT, and for OOI.  What then?  How should we use this information?   In what way should it inform action for the welfare of all humanity?  

Academia and identity and ideological politics especially casteist and regional have invested too much into AIT, no amount of science and archeological discoveries will detest the vested interests in giving up. AIT will not go away anywhere 

[BacktoCricaddict]

16 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Academia and identity and ideological politics especially casteist and regional have invested too much into AIT, no amount of science and archeological discoveries will detest the vested interests in giving up. AIT will not go away anywhere 

That was not the question, guru. 

 

First, Even the R1A data were also published by academics, no?  Like this: https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg20082 .  All academics from the National Centre for Applied Human Genetics - its as academic as it gets.  If these academics had an AIT agenda, why would they publish these results?

 

Second, I am asking the question "if things move in this direction and it is established by the scientific community that OOI is the most plausible theory, what are we to do with that information and can we use it for the betterment of humanity?" 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[coffee_rules]

3 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

That was not the question, guru. 

 

First, Even the R1A data were also published by academics, no?  Like this: https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg20082 .  All academics from the National Centre for Applied Human Genetics - its as academic as it gets.  If these academics had an AIT agenda, why would they publish these results?

 

Second, I am asking the question "if things move in this direction and it is established by the scientific community that OOI is the most plausible theory, what are we to do with that information and use it for the betterment of humanity?" 

 

 

There are multiple theories, some have questioned sampling methods. There is one UK or USA study which sampled NRIs settled in UK/ISA to do the study. Population genetics is just about 20-30 years old, most of it is still in hypothesis and some results are made to fit existing narratives. 
 

It’s moot point for now. Textbook revisions, Dravidian politics of regional divisions and caste politics of vilifying Brahmins as aryans will stop. Now think why OIT will be fought till the last nail. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

There are multiple theories, some have questioned sampling methods. There is one UK or USA study which sampled NRIs settled in UK/ISA to do the study. Population genetics is just about 20-30 years old, most of it is still in hypothesis and some results are made to fit existing narratives. 
 

It’s moot point for now. Textbook revisions, Dravidian politics of regional divisions and caste politics of vilifying Brahmins as aryans will stop. Now think why OIT will be fought till the last nail. 

Well, the field of population genetics has been around for 100 years.  I had to study it a bit in B.Sc and then in detail (hard as hell) in the 90s in grad school.  I think what you mean is the use of DNA in population genetics - that has been happening since the mid-80s. 

 

Be that as it may, I get what you are saying about agendas etc.  All I am asking is - other than academic curiosity and gaining knowledge in general, why is it important for the world to get this right?  Let's say the last nail is hit in 10 years.  What then?

 

  

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Well, the field of population genetics has been around for 100 years.  I had to study it a bit in B.Sc and then in detail (hard as hell) in the 90s in grad school.  I think what you mean is the use of DNA in population genetics - that has been happening since the mid-80s. 

 

Be that as it may, I get what you are saying about agendas etc.  All I am asking is - other than academic curiosity and gaining knowledge in general, why is it important for the world to get this right?  Let's say the last nail is hit in 10 years.  What then?

 

  

Of course, I meant DNA usage. I don’t get such cryptic questions. The general interest is purely on narratives. I don’t care if I have 10% of African, 15% of Scandinavian and whatever. But I don’t like to be told it is ok to undermine citizens just because of a migration that happened 4000 years ago. 

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Some really interesting debate, esp regarding R1A haplogroup.  For scientists pursuing basic research, the end game is the research itself - academic curiosity, if you will.  That is where I stand on this.  Just so much to learn and try to decipher. 

 

But, if that is not the end-game, then what is?  For instance, let's say that R1A, other genetics studies, and anthropological evidence together do indeed lead to scientific consensus against AIT, and for OOI.  What then?  How should we use this information?   In what way should it inform action for the welfare of all humanity?  

Aim isn't to to disprove AIT because people did come out settle in every civilization. The purpose is to prove that a lot of things existed before any influx and that migrants didn't bring those with them like saying Aryans from Central Europe brought Vedas with them. Rakhigarhi and Sanauli proves it. 

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, ash said:

again separatist theories and us vs them. I think you are not an Indian. You cannot decide what is holy and what is not. You paint a picture as if the Muslim Indians built that mosque to spite. No they did not.  They did not suddenly start praying in that location, as far as they are concerned the mosque is with them for generations. 
 

Don’t forget, they are Indians not Mughals. If any Indian Muslim is destructing a temple now or anytime after 1947, I will support you. Else don’t try to break the country.
 

 

But Indian muslims didn't make those. They are the victims of cruelty bu Muslim rulers 

[ash]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

But I don’t like to be told it is ok to undermine citizens just because of a migration that happened 4000 years ago. 

Ah the Irony is beautiful.. 

[ash]

7 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

In what way should it inform action for the welfare of all humanity?  

This is a pointless exercise to feed the delusions of the Indian RW with massive inferiority complex. Let’s say as the evidence suggest AIT is right, why should we get all defensive  about it? The vedas are still one of the most powerful religious text in the world and the Vedic culture is still thriving. Does it even matter if it came to India only after 1500 BC? I don’t understand the need to manufacture proof to backdate the Vedic culture.

 

The issue is not even mainstream and it won’t even help the vote bank politics of BJP. The only thing the OOT theory will do is inflate the egos of RW NRIs , desperate to cling on to some “culture” in a Christian white country. 

 

 

[rkt.india]

30 minutes ago, ash said:

This is a pointless exercise to feed the delusions of the Indian RW with massive inferiority complex. Let’s say as the evidence suggest AIT is right, why should we get all defensive  about it? The vedas are still one of the most powerful religious text in the world and the Vedic culture is still thriving. Does it even matter if it came to India only after 1500 BC? I don’t understand the need to manufacture proof to backdate the Vedic culture.

 

The issue is not even mainstream and it won’t even help the vote bank politics of BJP. The only thing the OOT theory will do is inflate the egos of RW NRIs , desperate to cling on to some “culture” in a Christian white country. 

 

 

When Rigveda has mentioned Saraswati river and it's civilization which disappeared 4000 years ago then how it is possible that Vedas were written 1500 years ago. It's just common sense.

 

[rkt.india]

38 minutes ago, ash said:

This is a pointless exercise to feed the delusions of the Indian RW with massive inferiority complex. Let’s say as the evidence suggest AIT is right, why should we get all defensive  about it? The vedas are still one of the most powerful religious text in the world and the Vedic culture is still thriving. Does it even matter if it came to India only after 1500 BC? I don’t understand the need to manufacture proof to backdate the Vedic culture.

 

The issue is not even mainstream and it won’t even help the vote bank politics of BJP. The only thing the OOT theory will do is inflate the egos of RW NRIs , desperate to cling on to some “culture” in a Christian white country. 

 

 

The basic problem with AIT is that it is premised on the assumption that the world was created, as per the Biblical time frame, in 4004 BC. So, after squeezing the millennia-old Indian civilisation within this time frame, it became obvious that the so-called Aryan invasion couldn’t have taken place before 1500-1200 BC. It was a tough job, but Max Muller was up to the task.

[rkt.india]

https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/rakhigarhi-reveals-india-was-never-just-a-refugee-colony-but-govt-wont-let-the-nation-write-its-own-history-10688251.html

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Rigveda mentions Battle of the ten kings...  So eastward expansion was not bloodless at all probably.  Formation of Kuru dynasty is believed to be linked with said battle. 

Lots & lots moving parts in those texts. 

[rkt.india]

https://www.indiatimes.com/explainers/news/how-discoveries-at-rakhigarhi-shape-our-understanding-of-indus-valley-civilisation-569601.html

 

Rakhigarhi dates back IVC before Mohenjo Daro which was supposed to be the beginning but Rakhigarhi settlement is older than Mohenjo Daro.

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Rigveda mentions Battle of the ten kings...  So eastward expansion was not bloodless at all probably.  Formation of Kuru dynasty is believed to be linked with said battle. 

Lots & lots moving parts in those texts. 

Rakhigarhi excavation denies any such possibility.

[rkt.india]

Regarding dna evidence, it's ludicrous. Suppose if some Chinese settle in Tamilnadu and thousands of years later, they found his remains and DNA test him, would that mean Tamils were mongoloids. 

[Lone Wolf]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Rakhigarhi excavation denies any such possibility.

One cannot refute the written evidence.  Rigvedic hymns are closest to what we will ever be able to understand the given time period