Moeen Ali: Ban the Mankad

[vvvslaxman]

53 minutes ago, Nikola said:

 

 

 

Kudos to the guy who went through the entire match. Interesting observations here.

 

 

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[BacktoCricaddict]

21 hours ago, zen said:

“Ashwining” in the worst form where the bowler pretends to bowl only to run a batsman out. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

... Buttler was pretending to be in his crease, no? 

[BacktoCricaddict]

Ya know, the more I read/hear about this, the more strongly I feel like "Mankading" should be used with pride by India supporters.  Yes, here was a guy who knew the rules, knew how to apply them and made sure others don't cheat.  Perhaps, we can use the term "Englanding" to bats(wo)men who leave their crease early and get an early advantage.

 

Commentary:

19.6 - This is it, guys and gals.  Aus need one run to tie the match and take it to the superover.  Can India stop them?  Will Maxi go for maximum or try to take a single to finish it off?  The field closes in.  Smith the non-striker.  Siraj, charging in ... wait what is that ...  Smith is ENGLANDING ... ENGLANDING ... clearly as the rare daylight in London ... he is 3 ft ahead ... clearly ENGLANDING ... did he take lessons from Jossie?  Moeen?  Or from the Dean herself?  ...   

[zen]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

... Buttler was pretending to be in his crease, no? 

In LOIs, batsmen including Indian take a run up at the non striker’ end  … If bowlers did a “Ashwin”, where the bowler stops as the non-striker begins his run up, you will see a lot of batsmen being run out in LOIs. 

Relatively, India lacks a good sports culture so you will find such things being supported here. For e.g. Ashwin would not do that to a Sachin or such Indian batsman, when he would be his run up, which sums up the situation.

Edited September 30, 2022 by zen

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, zen said:

n LOIs, batsmen including Indian take a run up at the non striker’ end  

Does not make it right.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

Relatively, India lacks a good sports culture so you will find such things being supported here.

Perhaps we like to follow the letter of the law.

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

For e.g. Ashwin would not do that to a Sachin or such Indian batsman,

Prove it.

 

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/12091714/mankading-ravichandran-ashwin-gives-final-warning-to-ipl-batsmen

Ravichandran Ashwin has given a "first and final warning" to batsmen in the IPL after opting not to Mankad Aaron Finch. 

 

Aaron Finch ain't Sachin T or any other Indian batsman.  Ashwin made his point with Jos Buttler and is not being an enforcer any more.  Other batsmen are likely more careful because of that.  And that is a good thing.  If you don't like the damn rule, have them change it. 

 

Speaking of sporting cultures:

 

 

 

Don't miss the umpire warning the sporting cultural ambassador in the background there.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Relatively, India lacks a good sports culture so you will find such things being supported here. For e.g. Ashwin would not do that to a Sachin or such Indian batsman, when he would be his run up, which sums up the situation.

Unnecessary comment. I'd say only the west indies are clear in this regard but when you think of gamesmanship and pushing the boundaries of the rules in cricket you don't think of India. I'd say sometimes our lot have been a bit too straitlaced. 

Re Mankading it's my personal opinion that it should not be regularised as a dismissal but I can see why the case will be made if it is in the rules why is it a problem?

Edited September 30, 2022 by rollingstoned

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Re Mankading it's my personal opinion that it should not be regularised as a dismissal but I can see why the case will be made if it is in the rules why is it a problem?

 

If there is such a strong feeling that it is not a legit dismissal, someone should've taken the initiative to have the rule changed. 

[zen]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Does not make it right.

 

It is not about right or wrong but how the game is played in LOIs with many batsmen starting a run up when the bowler begins to bowl (if a bowler stops midway during his run-up, many batsmen would be out of the crease) 

 

 

Quote

Perhaps we like to follow the letter of the law.

 

I doubt that.

 

Quote

Prove it.

 

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12123/12091714/mankading-ravichandran-ashwin-gives-final-warning-to-ipl-batsmen

Ravichandran Ashwin has given a "first and final warning" to batsmen in the IPL after opting not to Mankad Aaron Finch. 

 

Aaron Finch ain't Sachin T or any other Indian batsman.  Ashwin made his point with Jos Buttler and is not being an enforcer any more.  Other batsmen are likely more careful because of that.  And that is a good thing.  If you don't like the damn rule, have them change it. 

 

 

No Indian batsmen Mankeded (unless one wrongly assumes that they all remain in crease and only overseas batsmen take a start) and Ashwin giving an unnecessary warning to Finch (displaying that other bowlers do not even care unless your assumption is that batsmen, and that too OS only, are out of the crease when Ashwin is bowling). 

 

All types of batsmen (including Indians) take a run up to all kinds of bowlers (Indian or not). 

 

Quote

Speaking of sporting cultures:

 

Tendulkar was banned/fined for ball tampering too - Link  ... Add to that a history of  wide spread match-fixing ... Note that those found cheating were punished by their respective boards, while India tried to stand for Tendulkar, providing various excuses. 

 

Sports culture implies a much broader PoV not such selected examples that you posted (where the respective boards handed out bans) 

Edited September 30, 2022 by zen

[zen]

39 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

Unnecessary comment. I'd say only the west indies are clear in this regard but when you think of gamesmanship and pushing the boundaries of the rules in cricket you don't think of India. I'd say sometimes our lot have been a bit too straitlaced. 

Re Mankading it's my personal opinion that it should not be regularised as a dismissal but I can see why the case will be made if it is in the rules why is it a problem?

 

"Mankading" is in laws but rarely practised despite general violations by batsmen from all teams (unless by some "oversmart" bowler), "Ashwining" should be illegal (bending laws by stopping in normal delivery action to set up the batsman for a run out). 

Edited September 30, 2022 by zen

[rollingstoned]

37 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

If there is such a strong feeling that it is not a legit dismissal, someone should've taken the initiative to have the rule changed. 

I had this discussion the other day in the womens thread. This is one of those instances that it ends up in a bit of a grey area and when the ball is dead or not dead, so also what the object is of dismissing a batsman. I admit my bias in that im not a fan of it coz I would hate it if this was used against us at a decisive stage of some game and am not used to it for all the time I've watched the sport. Even in gully cricket no one dismisses someone for being a mm outside the crease before the ball is bowled. 

As per rules of the game Stokes boundary in that wc final off an overthrow was legit but hardly anyone agreed with it at that time and he himself asked if it could be deducted. Not sure if any other game has such room for interpretation so that a large part of how the game is played is regulated by spirit rather than codified law. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by rollingstoned

[rollingstoned]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

 

"Mankading" is in laws but rarely practised (unless by some "oversmart" bowler), "Ashwining" should be illegal (bending laws by stopping in normal delivery action to set up the batsman for a run out). 

I agree with you personally but we feel that way majorly because of what we are used to. There's nothing morally wrong in expecting a non striker to stay in his crease if it came to that and no one would even complain probably. 

[rollingstoned]

21 minutes ago, zen said:

Tendulkar was banned/fined for ball tampering too - Link  ... Add to that a history of match-fixing ... Note that those found cheating were punished by their respective boards, while India tried to stand for Tendulkar, providing various excuses

What you posted itself says he was cleared by icc. 

http://toi.in/KqX4BY/a33gj 

There is no proof Tendulkar was ever involved in fixing for him to need to be punished, if you are going to make those accusations at him you might as well do it for anyone who played with fixers by virtue of being merely associated with them in the same team. Yes he could be criticized for not shedding light on fixing in his autobiography but that's a separate issue and not one that implicates him in this one without any solid proof. 

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, rollingstoned said:

What you posted itself says he was cleared by icc. 

http://toi.in/KqX4BY/a33gj 

There is no proof Tendulkar was ever involved in fixing for him to need to be punished, if you are going to make those accusations at him you might as well do it for anyone who played with fixers by virtue of being merely associated with them in the same team. Yes he could be criticized for not shedding light on fixing in his autobiography but that's a separate issue and not one that implicates him in this one without any solid proof. 

 

Two different things are being mentioned - a) Tendulkar’s ball tempering, and b) wide spread match fixing in India (a different issue not repeated to Tendulkar) 

 

I know who carried out match fixing as those betting had offered me the opportunity to make money too by utilizing these cricketers (I am not into such things so refused)

[rollingstoned]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

Two different things are being mentioned - a) Tendulkar’s ball tempering, and b) wide spread match fixing in India (a different issue not repeated to Tendulkar) 

 

I know who carried out match fixing as those betting had offered me the opportunity to make money too by utilizing these cricketers (I am not into such things so refused)

Not interested in appeals to your own authority and cheap attempts to farm credibility here. Trust me vro is no good. 

You could have made your original point without those 2 examples which was only a reason to incoherently sperge about irrelevant issues which was why I addressed it when they were wrong in the first place. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by rollingstoned

[BacktoCricaddict]

22 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

I had this discussion the other day in the womens thread. This is one of those instances that it ends up in a bit of a grey area and when the ball is dead or not dead, so also what the object is of dismissing a batsman. I admit my bias in that im not a fan of it coz I would hate it if this was used against us at a decisive stage of some game and am not used to it for all the time I've watched the sport. Even in gully cricket no one dismisses someone for being a mm outside the crease before the ball is bowled. 

As per rules of the game Stokes boundary in that wc final off an overthrow was legit but hardly anyone agreed with it at that time and he himself asked if it could be deducted. Not sure if any other game has such room for interpretation so that a large part of how the game is played is regulated by spirit rather than codified law. 

Being that the game of cricket is becoming (or has become) highly professionalized and monetized, it is time to minimize "spirit" and maximize objectivity.  DRS is a great example of how this can be done - it is never going to be perfect, but it can keep getting closer to that point and is a heck of a lot better than just a pair of eyes and ears.  Boundary and stump cams are an another example.  

 

It is time to revisit Mankading, the boundary rule etc.  For sure there is an ICC rules committee that can do this with a week's worth of work.  Someone has to petition, push and proactively get it done.  Until then, let's just follow the letter of the law objectively and equally for all teams. 

 

Personally, I don't have an Indo-centric viewpoint and don't care who is the Mankader and who is doing the Mankading.  I will support it 100% even if Suryakumar Yadav is the batsman backing up too far and freakkin Javed Miandad is the bowler who Mankaded him.  I suspect most others on this board are the same way.   

[BacktoCricaddict]

41 minutes ago, zen said:

 

It is not about right or wrong but how the game is played in LOIs with many batsmen starting a run up when the bowler begins to bowl (if a bowler stops midway during his run-up, many batsmen would be out of the crease) 

 

 

 

I doubt that.

 

 

 

No Indian batsmen Mankeded (unless one wrongly assumes that they all remain in crease and only overseas batsmen take a start) and Ashwin giving an unnecessary warning to Finch (displaying that other bowlers do not even care unless your assumption is that batsmen, and that too OS only, are out of the crease when Ashwin is bowling). 

 

All types of batsmen (including Indians) take a run up to all kinds of bowlers (Indian or not). 

 

 

Tendulkar was banned/fined for ball tampering too - Link  ... Add to that a history of  wide spread match-fixing ... Note that those found cheating were punished by their respective boards, while India tried to stand for Tendulkar, providing various excuses. 

 

Sports culture implies a much broader PoV not such selected examples that you posted (where the respective boards handed out bans) 

Langer was banned for flicking the bail and appealing for hit wicket?  I don't remember that happening. 

 

If other bowlers don't Mankad Indian batsmen who are backing up too far, well, they're fools.  Do it once and it will stop.

[zen]

1 minute ago, rollingstoned said:

Not interested in appeals to your own authority and cheap attempts to farm credibility here. Trust me vro is no good. 

You could have made your original point without those 2 examples which was only a reason to incoherently sperge about irrelevant issues which was why I addressed it when they were wrong in the first place. 

1st of all, those examples were made in relation to a point I was making to another posters.

 

2nd, the other is just a casual remark on my part of my experience with those involved in betting and match fixing (I don’t need some article to know that). 
 

 

[rollingstoned]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

1st of all, those examples were made in relation to a point I was making to another posters.

 

2nd, the other is just a casual remark on my part of my experience with those involved in betting and match fixing (I don’t need some article to know that). 
 

 

You could have said everyone cheats to some extent. You used 2 egs.that don't actually make the case you wanted to make. Anyways, this is tangential to what was being discussed. 

[rollingstoned]

17 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Being that the game of cricket is becoming (or has become) highly professionalized and monetized, it is time to minimize "spirit" and maximize objectivity.  DRS is a great example of how this can be done - it is never going to be perfect, but it can keep getting closer to that point and is a heck of a lot better than just a pair of eyes and ears.  Boundary and stump cams are an another example.  

 

It is time to revisit Mankading, the boundary rule etc.  For sure there is an ICC rules committee that can do this with a week's worth of work.  Someone has to petition, push and proactively get it done.  Until then, let's just follow the letter of the law objectively and equally for all teams. 

 

Personally, I don't have an Indo-centric viewpoint and don't care who is the Mankader and who is doing the Mankading.  I will support it 100% even if Suryakumar Yadav is the batsman backing up too far and freakkin Javed Miandad is the bowler who Mankaded him.  I suspect most others on this board are the same way.   

There will be accidental runouts for eg where one of the runners may fall and the fielding captain will try to see to it that the player is not dismissed for it. Recently Imam ul haq got out after he left the crease coz everyone thought the ball died and the keeper appealed after which he was Given out which also created a debate. Previously handling the ball was one such dismissal which needed clarification leat it be gamed. the spirit of the game more than a moral imperative is a way to use common sense where rules may not suffice. If the object of the fielding team is to dismiss the batsman, the spirit behind that also has to be pondered upon so that even when mistakes and deception - the fair kind Ie being bamboozled -  are accounted for he is adjudged to have been dismissed in a way that is not conning. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by rollingstoned

[zen]

55 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Langer was banned for flicking the bail and appealing for hit wicket?  I don't remember that happening. 

 

If other bowlers don't Mankad Indian batsmen who are backing up too far, well, they're fools.  Do it once and it will stop.

 

This is not about India or others (which is what many posters confuse such topics with) ... If you played cricket, you should know that even in gully cricket, people do not usually Mankad. 

 

Ashinwing is not Mankeding, which is what I commented on (You tried to turn in to Butter v Ashwin. When it could be whoever (including Indian batsmen) versus Ashwining (by any bowler)). 

 

India itself, apart from some oversmart cricketers, does not Mankad (Ashwin too has not Ashwined when playing for India. IIRC, he was removed from PK's captaincy too where this issue could have played a part) ... And usually, it is the fanboys of such cricketers that attempt to make it India v others. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by zen