Let’s do a fair assessment of : Ashwin & Jaddu vs. Kumble- Bhajji on Indian pitches.

[R!TTER]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

Ashwin/Jaddu's real value lies in their batting. If they benefitted in bowler friendly pitches, how come they are averaging 30+ & 40+ with bat in such tough conditions. Why couldn't Kumble/Bhajji do it in supposedly flatter era.Bhajji apart from one series v NZ was a glorified tailender.

Because they are better bats, there's no disputing that. Why can't you have more helpful surfaces+ DRS & still be a better bat lower down the order? Is there some rule like that 

 

You mean like vs Eng 2007, or Oz 2007/08 away?

[putrevus]

12 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

You should also admit Bhajji would have never been allowed to bowl with his chucking action. Ashwin himself played a major role in rooting out of all the chuckers especially the full sleeve chuckers like Ajmal, Narine.

Bhajji was not an ordinary bowler.He was a champion who could bowl in every format. Is Ashwin better than Bhajji then answer would be yes but that does not make Bhajji  a useless bowler.

 

Bedi, Prassana  and co are not even  in the ball park  of Bhajji so forget them being better than Ashwin and Jadeja.

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Because they are better bats, there's no disputing that. Why can't you have more helpful surfaces+ DRS & still be a better bat lower down the order? Is there some rule like that 

 

You mean like vs Eng 2007, or Oz 2007/08 away?

 

yes they worked on their batting big time and yet equal to Bhajji/Kumble in bowling.

 

Kumble/Bhajji were just lazy with bat. Specially Bhajji. Never worked on it despite having workable basics

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, Lord said:

Ashwin/Jaddu's real value lies in their batting. If they benefitted in bowler friendly pitches, how come they are averaging 30+ & 40+ with bat in such tough conditions. Why couldn't Kumble/Bhajji do it in supposedly flatter era.Bhajji apart from one series v NZ was a glorified tailender.

Let us not get batting into picture. Just talk about them as bowlers.

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Let us not get batting into picture. Just talk about them as bowlers.

it's used to show pitches are not that tough. Good batsmen can score if they work hard.

 

Anyway difference in averages still too big even accounting for all these things.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Bhajji was not an ordinary bowler.He was a champion who could bowl in every format. Is Ashwin better than Bhajji then answer would be yes but that does not make Bhajji  a useless bowler.

 

Bedi, Prassana  and co are not even  in the ball park  of Bhajji so forget them being better than Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

He had a decent career. But for argument sake if we talk about DRS we should talk about his action as well. He had 22 degrees bend. Ofcourse still better than Ajmal who had 35 to 40 degree bend. 15 degree rule was introduced in 2004. He was reported twice in 2004/2005.  Between 2000-2003 he was averaging 26. After that till his career end in 2015 his average was 35. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[putrevus]

Just now, Lord said:

it's used to show pitches are not that tough. Good batsmen can score if they work hard.

 

Anyway difference in averages still too big even accounting for all these things.

 

 

Their bowling averages are so different. Ashwin and Jadeja are on par to be among greatest bowlers not just spinners.

 

 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

He had a decent career. But for argument sake if we talk about DRS we should talk about his action as well. He had 22 degrees bend. Ofcourse still better than Ajmal who had 35 to 40 degree bend. 15 degree rule was introduced in 2004. He was reported twice in 2004/2005.  Between 2000-2004 he was averaging 26. After that till his career end in 2015 his average was 35. 

Bhajji had a wonderful career.  Bhajji was allowed to bowl and picked up 400 plus wicket so nitpicking his action now is a futile exercise . Did he lose some sting in his bowling during later part of his career then answer is yes. Bhajji like Sehwag took things for granted and never worked on his game.

 

 

[putrevus]

Both Ashwin and Jadeja are now avg under 24 and with their contributions with bat, they are the best players to have played for India in India. No Sachin, no other guys come close to the value these two bring to the team.

 

Kumble or another spinner is not even in the same ball park as these two. India is indeed blessed to have these two for last decade.

[rangeelaraja]

12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Both Ashwin and Jadeja are now avg under 24 and with their contributions with bat, they are the best players to have played for India in India. No Sachin, no other guys come close to the value these two bring to the team.

 

Kumble or another spinner is not even in the same ball park as these two. India is indeed blessed to have these two for last decade.

 

Sehwag matches them in impact. He was responsible for most wins in a big or small way, with his blistering scoring rate. 

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Sehwag matches them in impact. He was responsible for most wins in a big or small way, with his blistering scoring rate. 

Nah, he is not even close. He was responsible for some wins but not the domination these two have given Indian team.

Edited February 20, 2023 by putrevus

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Sehwag matches them in impact. He was responsible for most wins in a big or small way, with his blistering scoring rate. 

 

Yes. Dang. Bazball my foot. That guy scored 287 runs againstt Murali and Herath in 2.5 sessions. Thrashed Akhtar all over. Sehwag/Ashwin/Jadeja/Rohit These 4 will be unbeatable combo at home.

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Nah, he is not even close. He was responsible for some wins but not the domination these two have given Indian team.

You are getting carried away with what is called as recency bias. Please look it up if you don’t know what it means. 
 

These two Jaddu and Ashwin are formidable  in our conditions  but Sehwag was a force of nature. A freak genius. 
 

Over the last few years we have treated some really average spin bowlers like Murali, Sehwag would have hammered them into submission. He was ruthless against even Warne and Murali , and destroyed Saqlains career on his comeback. 
 

i would bet that it Sehwag was in the opposition - he would have smashed the daylights out if even Ashwin and Jaddu in their  prime in these conditions that they thrive because Sehwag thrives in these conditions too. 
 

Sehwag was one of a kind. 
 

Opening the batting. 82 ish strike rate in test cricket with a 50 ish average for most of his career.
 

200s and 300s in a day. 

 

Insane. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[speedracer]

30 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

You are getting carried away with what is called as recency bias. Please look it up if you don’t know what it means. 
 

These two Jaddu and Ashwin are formidable  in our conditions  but Sehwag was a force of nature. A freak genius. 
 

Over the last few years we have treated some really average spin bowlers like Murali, Sehwag would have hammered them into submission. He was ruthless against even Warne and Murali , and destroyed Saqlains career on his comeback. 
 

i would bet that it Sehwag was in the opposition - he would have smashed the daylights out if even Ashwin and Jaddu in their  prime in these conditions that they thrive because Sehwag thrives in these conditions too. 
 

Sehwag was one of a kind. 
 

Opening the batting. 82 ish strike rate in test cricket with a 50 ish average for most of his career.
 

200s and 300s in a day. 

 

Insane. 

Sehwag would have issues vs umesh shami siraj in Asian conditions though. They aren't easy to play like sena chumps in Asia.

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yes. Dang. Bazball my foot. That guy scored 287 runs againstt Murali and Herath in 2.5 sessions. Thrashed Akhtar all over. Sehwag/Ashwin/Jadeja/Rohit These 4 will be unbeatable combo at home.

The difference is Bazball is being done every test.Sehwag while being great on his day had his share of failures.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

The difference is Bazball is being done every test.Sehwag while being great on his day had his share of failures.

 

Bazball is a shared effort by England. Not one guy. Sehwag always batted like that. 

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

You are getting carried away with what is called as recency bias. Please look it up if you don’t know what it means. 
 

These two Jaddu and Ashwin are formidable  in our conditions  but Sehwag was a force of nature. A freak genius. 
 

Over the last few years we have treated some really average spin bowlers like Murali, Sehwag would have hammered them into submission. He was ruthless against even Warne and Murali , and destroyed Saqlains career on his comeback. 
 

i would bet that it Sehwag was in the opposition - he would have smashed the daylights out if even Ashwin and Jaddu in their  prime in these conditions that they thrive because Sehwag thrives in these conditions too. 
 

Sehwag was one of a kind. 
 

Opening the batting. 82 ish strike rate in test cricket with a 50 ish average for most of his career.
 

200s and 300s in a day. 

 

Insane. 

I said in many times in past Sehwag is best batsman for India in subcontinental conditions. He is the best player of spin bowling in history of cricket and there is no one close to him.Even Murali has said it many times the only batsman he feared most was Sehwag.

 

But the consistentcy these two give with ball and bat is unmatched.One decade of unbeaten record in subcontinent is beyond compare in my view. There is no recency bias.If you think wickets aided them in bowling then they batted on the same wickets and scored those runs.How can anyone top that?

Edited February 20, 2023 by putrevus

[rangeelaraja]

22 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I said in many times in past Sehwag is best batsman for India in subcontinental conditions. He is the best player of spin bowling in history of cricket and there is no one close to him.Even Murali has said it many times the only batsman he feared most was Sehwag.

 

But the consistentcy these two give with ball and bat is unmatched.One decade of unbeaten record in subcontinent is beyond compare in my view. There is no recency bias.If you think wickets aided them in bowling then they batted on the same wickets and scored those runs.How can anyone top that?

 

Sehwag has a Batting Average of 58 in the subcontinent with a strike rate of about 85, which is over 5 runs an over. 

 

Nobody is even close to Sehwag. 

 

Your  comparison is kind of flawed. As a bowler in test cricket you have umpteen opportunities and bowlers in theory have a greater opportunity to be MVPs in Tests relative to batsmen.

 

For the record Murali has nearly 500 test wickets in Lanka alone at an average under 20.  How is that for consistency ?

 

These 2 Jaddu and Ashwin also stand out because our current batters our duds. 

 

Folks like Sehwag and VVS Lakshman would toy around with these Aussie spinners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[putrevus]

23 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Bazball is a shared effort by England. Not one guy. Sehwag always batted like that. 

That is why to me it is more astonshing than what Sehwag did, what England did in NZ first test was just amazing. 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

That is why to me it is more astonshing than what Sehwag did, what England did in NZ first test was just amazing. 

 

Inspite of that INdia's run rate against England at the oval was higher htan England's run rate thanks to Pant. He outbazballed them in the first innings.