Who is India's best pacer of all-time in Tests, ODIs and T20Is?

[zen]

That people rate likes of Bumrah, Shami, Srinath, Zak, etc. over Kapil is a reflection on how poor Kapil is perceived to be. 
 

Even if Bumrah had played 20 tests, I am positive many would still rate him over Kapil. That is not a nod to Bumrah’s greatness but how poor Kapil is rated as a main strike bowler.

[Majestic]

Kapil Dev is India's greatest bowler of all-time.

 

Shami and Siraj would have averaged same as Ishant Sharma if they played in 70s as apparent with the fact that inspite of toiling it hard, they are struggling to pick wickets because opposition batsman are grinding it out , something which was pretty common in 1980s.

 

Undoubtedly, one of the all-time great of the game along with the likes of Gavaskar, Tendulkar and Kohli from India.

[zen]

At this point, going with Shami (Bumrah, Srinath, & Zak have their respective cases) as I like the skills he brings to the table, along with being a good to watch bowler. 
 

Tier 1: Shami & Bumrah (as good as the best of their time)

Tier 1.5: Srinath & Zak (close to the best of their time)

Tier 2: Kapil (by and large a tier 2 bowler. A pale reflection of a main strike bowler when compared to greats of his time such as Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Imran, Akram, Lillee, Hadlee, etc.)

[vvvslaxman]

14 hours ago, Ravi_Shastri said:

Pandya is the best all rounder

Bumrah is the best bowler

Pujara is the best batsman

Dhokla is the best food

 

 

That sums up this thread lol 

[rtmohanlal]

Kapil Dev  as of now ... Based on the adversities he played against , I would rate his average of 29.64 at   around 26.5 by normal standards.   Add his ODI average of  27.45  there is no contest. Close contender is Shami with pretty good numbers in both main formats.   Bumrah is always on and off  . When the crunch moment comes he  misses out .  No guarantee about his longevity either .     

Edited June 8, 2023 by rtmohanlal

[vvvslaxman]

Best is the one that is available whenever needed.  Bumrah did play IPL while missing some international assignments

[Vijy]

it would be boomer even though he's a bit of a choker

[Majestic]

It is a shame that India's greatest pace bowler is the one who has played only 30 tests for a full time top nation like India.

[zen]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

It is a shame that India's greatest pace bowler is the one who has played only 30 tests for a full time top nation like India.

That is the “reality” (that a Bumrah, Shami, etc., irrespective of the number of games, are better as main strike bowlers). 
 

Even when Kapil went past Hadlee’s #, there were no bragging rights (that tells the story). It is good that Ind has at least moved away from the laughable situation of Kapil as its top strike bowler.

[Vijy]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

It is a shame that India's greatest pace bowler is the one who has played only 30 tests for a full time top nation like India.

he's had injuries, been rested, and debuted a bit later in tests

[Majestic]

39 minutes ago, zen said:

That is the “reality” (that a Bumrah, Shami, etc., irrespective of the number of games, are better as main strike bowlers). 
 

Even when Kapil went past Hadlee’s #, there were no bragging rights (that tells the story). It is good that Ind has at least moved away from the laughable situation of Kapil as its top strike bowler.

The bar is low but Kapil is the best.

 

Shami by no means is better than Kapil. Current test is again an example for that .

 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

The bar is low but Kapil is the best.

 

Shami by no means is better than Kapil. Current test is again an example for that .

 

Over the decades, Kapil fans have tried (unsuccessfully) to big up Kapil and that too in the comfort of other Indian fans.
 

Kapil Dev has had multiple such tests where he has failed in Eng, NZ, SA (iirc), & SL. Other pacers have out bowled him too.  At home, he even went wicketless in a 3 test series against Aus in 1986. 

Kapil shop has been shut. Move on. 

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Over the decades, Kapil fans have tried (unsuccessfully) to big up Kapil and that too in the comfort of other Indian fans.
 

Kapil Dev has had multiple such tests where he has failed in Eng, NZ, SA (iirc), & SL. Other pacers have out bowled him too.  At home, he even went wicketless in a 3 test series against Aus in 1986. 

Kapil shop has been shut. Move on. 

When you play a lot of test matches, it is hard to maintain the performance so consistently.

 

Shami has been playing from over a decade now and has not even picked 250 test wickets or 10 fi-fers( less than half of Kapil Dev). Kapil crossed this match in five years of his career. He is a level ahead of Shami.

[zen]

21 minutes ago, Majestic said:

When you play a lot of test matches, it is hard to maintain the performance so consistently.

 

Shami has been playing from over a decade now and has not even picked 250 test wickets or 10 fi-fers( less than half of Kapil Dev). Kapil crossed this match in five years of his career. He is a level ahead of Shami.

The nature of cricket has changed. Shami (or whoever) on average plays far more games than what Kapil did in his time (and in that too went through the motions). Just in IPL a top player can play 14-17 games in like 2 months, add other cricket to it over the year. 
 

Many top quick bowlers who pushed themselves in the 70s-80s, many went through injuries too and played relatively less number of games, are rated “much” higher than Kapil.
 

By playing more games unnecessarily (and also said to have taken a stand against fast bowlers), Kapil Dev has let India down with the ball more than any other bowler (or even player) in Ind’s history. 
 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by zen

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, zen said:

The nature of cricket has changed. Shami (or whoever) on average plays far more games than what Kapil did in his time (and in that too went through the motions). Just in IPL a top player can play 14-17 games in like 2 months, add other cricket to it over the year. 
 

Many top quick bowlers who pushed themselves in the 70s-80s, many went through injuries too and played relatively less number of games, are rated “much” higher than Kapil.
 

By playing more games unnecessarily (and also said to have taken a stand against fast bowlers), Kapil Dev has let India down with the ball more than any other bowler (or even player) in Ind’s history. 
 

 

 

Bond was better than Kapil for sure, despite playing "only" 18 tests and 82 ODIs and some T20s (i.e., 100+ int'l matches in all). In fact, I would even rate him a shade higher than steyn

Edited June 9, 2023 by Vijy

[zen]

54 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Bond was better than Kapil for sure, despite playing "only" 18 tests and 82 ODIs and some T20s (i.e., 100+ int'l matches in all). In fact, I would even rate him a shade higher than steyn

 

Quite a few bowlers even during Kapil's time such as Lillee, Marshall, Ambrose (debut 1988), Garner, Holding, Roberts, Walsh (debut 1984), Bishop (debut 1989), Hadlee, Imran, Akram (debut 1985), Waqar (debut 1989), ... 

 

PS Apart from the above, there used to be Craig McDermott, Bruce Reid, Merv Huges, Terry Alderman (destroyed Eng in Eng), etc. 

 

Btw, Bruce Reid if you remember:

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, zen said:

The nature of cricket has changed. Shami (or whoever) on average plays far more games than what Kapil did in his time (and in that too went through the motions). Just in IPL a top player can play 14-17 games in like 2 months, add other cricket to it over the year. 
 

Many top quick bowlers who pushed themselves in the 70s-80s, many went through injuries too and played relatively less number of games, are rated “much” higher than Kapil.
 

By playing more games unnecessarily (and also said to have taken a stand against fast bowlers), Kapil Dev has let India down with the ball more than any other bowler (or even player) in Ind’s history. 
 

 

 

That's not true. Shami plays lesser games on an average than Kapil did. That's where you need to educate yourself. Kapil simply played an unbelievable number of games( Tests, ODIs, county cricket) and he doesn't have to run away with just 4 overs spell.

 

As I said, it is comical to suggest any of Shami, Srinath or Zaheer as better than Kapil. Pretty laughworthy suggestion but then it is expected from someone who considers Pujara as the most impactful batsman since 1990 

[zen]

13 minutes ago, Majestic said:

That's not true. Shami plays lesser games on an average than Kapil did. That's where you need to educate yourself. Kapil simply played an unbelievable number of games( Tests, ODIs, county cricket) and he doesn't have to run away with just 4 overs spell.

 

As I said, it is comical to suggest any of Shami, Srinath or Zaheer as better than Kapil. Pretty laughworthy suggestion but then it is expected from someone who considers Pujara as the most impactful batsman since 1990 

 

First, you wrote against Bumrah, then Srinath, and now Shami ... then you resorted to creating strawmen, twisting arguments, dragging irrelevant players, etc. ... But nothing helps (one thing that could help you is admitting to yourself that Kapil is a second-tier bowler of his time).

 

Social media is not your mohalla in India.  

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

 

First, you wrote against Bumrah, then Srinath, and now Shami ... But nothing helps (admit to yourself that Kapil is a second-tier bowler of his time)

 

Social media is not your mohalla in India. 

I didn't wrote anything against any player which is wrong. I am just saying facts.

 

Shami took a decade to reach the wickets tally that Kapil reached in 5 years. It will take Shami a decade more cricket to reach Kapil Dev 's wicket tally of 434. It's not like Kapil got to that mark at some terrible average. It was good considering the adversity in which he bowled.

[zen]

Just now, Majestic said:

I didn't wrote anything against any player which is wrong. I am just saying facts.

 

Shami took a decade to reach the wickets tally that Kapil reached in 5 years. It will take Shami a decade more cricket to reach Kapil Dev 's wicket tally of 434. It's not like Kapil got to that mark at some terrible average. It was good considering the adversity in which he bowled.

 

First, do you know the title that you wrote - "Who is India's best pacer of all-time in Tests, ODIs and T20Is?" 

 

Today's top players tend to play 14-17 IPL games in just 2 months. 

 

No one cares about Kapil's tally. He did NOT deserve to play for so long in the first place.