When will a Indian Team management understand the value of a Fast Bowler?

[vvvslaxman]

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If they get selected for India don't they have to bowl 20 overs in a day. These guys are bowling with spinners in the team to handle major overs.

 

Question remains where are the fast bowlers in the country?

 

 

India has fast bowlers. They are never going to play for INdia if the selection policy is conventional. Selectors look for number of wickets in a given season. I don't expect an express bowler or above average fast bowler to top that chart in Indian domestic. They have to identify a group of bowlers and take punt with one who look better among all. Right now they have left that job to IPL teams. IPL team has no restriction on zonal quota. They can pick whoever they want. 

[express bowling]

40 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

 

Question remains where are the fast bowlers in the country?

 

 

 

■    Fast Bowlers in India ....

 

Jasprit Bumrah .. Gujrat .. injured 

Umran Malik .. J&K .. in the LOI squads

Kartik Tyagi .. UP .. ignored 

Harshit Rana .. Delhi .. in India A 

Kuldeep Sen .. MP .. ignored 

Navdeep Saini .. Delhi .. dropped from Test playing 11

 

 

 

 

■     Bouncy Fast Medium ....

 

Prasidh Krishna .. Karnataka .. injured

Mohsin Khan .. UP .. ignored

Mayank Yadav .. Delhi .. ignored 

Akashdeep .. Bengal .. ignored 

Gurnoor Brar .. Punjab .. ignored 

Yudhvir Singh .. J&K .. ignored 

 

 

 

 

■     Zippy Fast-medium ....

 

Md.Siraj .. Hyderabad .. playing tests 

Md.Shami .. Bengal .. rested 

Simarjeet Singh .. Delhi .. injured 

Kamlesh Nagarkoti .. Rajasthan .. ignored 

Sushant Mishra .. Jharkhand .. ignored 

Tushar Deshpande .. Mumbai .. ignored 

 

 

 

**   Mayank Yadav and Nagarkoti may become genuine Fast Bowlers if they get to play regularly. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by express bowling

[Suhaan]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India has fast bowlers. They are never going to play for INdia if the selection policy is conventional. Selectors look for number of wickets in a given season. I don't expect an express bowler or above average fast bowler to top that chart in Indian domestic. They have to identify a group of bowlers and take punt with one who look better among all. Right now they have left that job to IPL teams. IPL team has no restriction on zonal quota. They can pick whoever they want. 

Ignore his despising questions,only Koolie exists in the country for that lot

If Koolie had been dropped for his pathetic handling of pace in 2011 ,we wouldn't have seen him fool around for this long

But everyone else has to score right from the start for fun like Koolie is doing now

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

India has fast bowlers. They are never going to play for INdia if the selection policy is conventional. Selectors look for number of wickets in a given season. I don't expect an express bowler or above average fast bowler to top that chart in Indian domestic. They have to identify a group of bowlers and take punt with one who look better among all. Right now they have left that job to IPL teams. IPL team has no restriction on zonal quota. They can pick whoever they want. 

I completely disagree, all those bowlers who are being talked about are getting chances, it is upto to them to impress, which bowlers are being left out in cold. You don't have to take most number of wickets in season to get selected as a fast bowler in India.

 

Duleep trophy or Irani trophy have always been stepping stones for players.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I completely disagree, all those bowlers who are being talked about are getting chances, it is upto to them to impress, which bowlers are being left out in cold. You don't have to take most number of wickets in season to get selected as a fast bowler in India.

 

Duleep trophy or Irani trophy have always been stepping stones for players.

 

 

 

Looking at the North Zone line up i don't think they get chances. Even West Zone is full of 120k trundlers. It is hard to break into zonal side without someone "backing" you up.  For instance Gujju Nagwaswalla played 1 Ranji match picked 4 wickets at 22.  Tushar Desphande represented Mumbai took 23 wickets in 6 Ranji matches at 25.   CT Gaja is also a gujju. Atit seth the third fast bowler is also a Gujju.  He also played just 1 Ranji match took 4 wickets.  So they basically picked 3 Gujjus 2 of them hardly played any Ranji (1 each precisely) in 2023 season.

[putrevus]

37 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

■    Fast Bowlers in India ....

 

Jasprit Bumrah .. Gujrat .. injured 

Umran Malik .. J&K .. in the LOI squads

Kartik Tyagi .. UP .. ignored 

Harshit Rana .. Delhi .. in India A 

Kuldeep Sen .. MP .. ignored 

Navdeep Saini .. Delhi .. dropped from Test playing 11

 

 

 

 

■     Bouncy Fast Medium ....

 

Prasidh Krishna .. Karnataka .. injured

Mohsin Khan .. UP .. ignored

Mayank Yadav .. Delhi .. ignored 

Akashdeep .. Bengal .. ignored 

Gurnoor Brar .. Punjab .. ignored 

Yudhvir Singh .. J&K .. ignored 

 

 

 

 

■     Zippy Fast-medium ....

 

Md.Siraj .. Hyderabad .. playing tests 

Md.Shami .. Bengal .. rested 

Simarjeet Singh .. Delhi .. injured 

Kamlesh Nagarkoti .. Rajasthan .. ignored 

Sushant Mishra .. Jharkhand .. ignored 

Tushar Deshpande .. Mumbai .. ignored 

 

 

 

**   Mayank Yafav and Nagarkoti may become genuine Fast Bowlers if they get to play regularly. 

 

 

 

 

My point of view  about fast bowlers as related to FC and tests only.

 

 

I will talk only about your fast bowlers list.

 

Umran Malik is not even close to playing test cricket, does he want to play test cricket is the bigger  question.He regressed a lot last season in IPL. Him being fast forwarded to Indian selection shows as always in India fast bowlers  get fast tracked.

 

As seen from last IPL Karthik Tyagi is still a season away from getting back to selection process. No one will be ignoring him, he is too good a talent to be missed if he stays injury free.  

 

I don't rate Kuleep Sen or Saini, IMO they are not that good.You may differ from my view.Still Saini got selected for this series.

 

I have not seen Rana much so cannot comment.But He is young his selection to India A shows he is being considered.

 

Nagarkoti was given an IPL contract even when he was injured, so him being ignored does not arise.  It is unfortunate that this guy has not progressed and has not played for India.

 

Still I would have liked one of these guys play instead of Jaidev in current test against WI.

 

Jaidev's selection make no sense,only Dravid can answer that question.

Edited July 13, 2023 by putrevus

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

I saw kaverappa at 130 ,131.

 

Vyshak bowled a 123k back of a length ball to jadeja and it hurried him ,and this jadeja was driving umran with aplomb in irani trophy.

 

Ability to extract bounce and zip off the deck matter too and not just release speeds. Even a ball released at 132 k  may look and feel sharp. 

 

But most of these seamers lack even the basic release speeds needed for newbies. They will probably average 128 k to 130 k under international cricket speed guns but even that is too low unless a pacer is nearing retirement and is a veteran in international cricket like old Walsh or old McGrath aged 35+.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by express bowling

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I completely disagree, all those bowlers who are being talked about are getting chances, it is upto to them to impress, which bowlers are being left out in cold. You don't have to take most number of wickets in season to get selected as a fast bowler in India.

 

Prasidh Krishna, averaging 18 in FC cricket, is yet to debut in tests gor India and he is already 27.

 

Kartik Tyagi is not getting into the UP Ranji squad despite performing in VHT and SMAT and proving his fitness. 

 

21 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Duleep trophy or Irani trophy have always been stepping stones for players.

 

 

Kuldeep Sen took 8 wickets in the Irani Trophy but has been ignored while choosing the test squad. 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Prasidh Krishna, averaging 18 in FC cricket, is yet to debut in tests gor India and he is already 27.

 

Kartik Tyagi is not getting into the UP Ranji squad despite performing in VHT and SMAT and proving his fitness. 

 

 

Kuldeep Sen took 8 wickets in the Irani Trophy but has been ignored while choosing the test squad. 

Who were selected instead of of Kuldeep needs to be answered,  is he is better than Siraj, Shami and Bumrah or Umesh?

 

Kevarappa also averages 19. He has played already 11 FC matches since his debut in 2022.

 

Prasidh Krishna has played 11 FC matches since his debut in 2015.

 

What does that tell you about his fitness.

 

[vvvslaxman]

Shortest way is finding a spot in playing XI of an IPL and blitz a couple of sides with pace.

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

My point of view  about fast bowlers as related to FC and tests only.

 

 

I will talk only about your fast bowlers list.

 

Umran Malik is not even close to playing test cricket, does he want to play test cricket is the bigger  question.He regressed a lot last season in IPL. Him being fast forwarded to Indian selection shows as always in India fast bowlers  get fast tracked.

 

As seen from last IPL Karthik Tyagi is still a season away from getting back to selection process. No one will be ignoring him, he is too good a talent to be missed if he stays injury free.  

 

I don't rate Kuleep Sen or Saini, IMO they are not that good.You may differ from my view.Still Saini got selected for this series.

 

I have not seen Rana much so cannot comment.But He is young his selection to India A shows he is being considered.

 

Nagarkoti was given an IPL contract even when he was injured, so him being ignored does not arise.  It is unfortunate that this guy has not progressed and has not played for India.

 

Still I would have liked one of these guys play instead of Jaidev in current test against WI.

 

Jaidev's selection make no sense,only Dravid can answer that question.

 

 

Even if you consider just FC snd tests, Kuldeep Sen looks very promising. The reason is because he gets both steep bounce as well as big movement with regularity while bowling fast. He was regularly 138 k to 147 k in the Irani Cup match I talked about. Plus he is around 6'3" tall.

 

Was seaming and bouncing the new ball and reversing the old ball while attacking thd stumps. Under a decent bowling coach, this guy can be gold.

 

Harshit Rana has immense stamina in red ball cricket. Pounds the pitch hard throughout the day and is another tall guy around 6'2". Bowls genuinely quick. Gets steep bounce and seam movement. Bowls big indippers.  But can swing the ball too. Bowls with good enough accuracy. 

 

He has picked 28 wickets ftom 7 FC games while averaging 26 and has an SR of 39. Most importantly, he seems to have the big heart needed in 5 day cricket 

 

Umran is not ready yet for 5 day cricket but this is the reason why he needed to play Duleep Trophy in place of Kaul or Baltej. 

 

As he is a very skiddy pacer bowling express, he can be invaluable in tests in Asia if he practices reverding the older red ball. 

 

Plus he can be handy in Australia or SA too as the ball flies there.

 

[express bowling]

23 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Who were selected instead of of Kuldeep needs to be answered,  is he is better than Siraj, Shami and Bumrah or Umesh?

 

Mukesh Kumar and Unadkat. 

 

23 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Kevarappa also averages 19. He has played already 11 FC matches since his debut in 2022.

 

Prasidh Krishna has played 11 FC matches since his debut in 2015.

 

What does that tell you about his fitness.

 

 

The reason for just 11 games is because Vinay, Mithun and Arvind were preferred over him for their experience in the Karnataka playing 11.  

 

This happened repeatedly even when Prasidh was fit. 

[express bowling]

23 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

All of them have excellent stats , specially sr.Even gaja has an excellent sr of under 50,as well as nearly 4 wkts per match,it's not that easy to replace them.

 

Anyone bowling in good enough areas in Ranji Trophy gets wickets because most batters are of a low quality ( even more so in the T20 era ). And this happens even at 115 kph speeds.

 

But if suchnpacers ard the only ones getting selected, then how will we find international quality pacers.

 

Such medium pacers rule domestic cricket in Australia, SA, Pakistan too ... but the moment they find a quick bowler, they try to develop him. 

 

But not the case in India.  There is a reason why we have produced just one sub 26 averaging test pacer with 100+ wickets in our history ... and the reason is this. 

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Even if you consider just FC snd tests, Kuldeep Sen looks very promising. The reason is because he gets both steep bounce as well as big movement with regularity while bowling fast. He was regularly 138 k to 147 k in the Irani Cup match I talked about. Plus he is around 6'3" tall.

 

Was seaming and bouncing the new ball and reversing the old ball while attacking thd stumps. Under a decent bowling coach, this guy can be gold.

 

Harshit Rana has immense stamina in red ball cricket. Pounds the pitch hard throughout the day and is another tall guy around 6'2". Bowls genuinely quick. Gets steep bounce and seam movement. Bowls big indippers.  But can swing the ball too. Bowls with good enough accuracy. 

 

He has picked 28 wickets ftom 7 FC games while averaging 26 and has an SR of 39. Most importantly, he seems to have the big heart needed in 5 day cricket 

 

Umran is not ready yet for 5 day cricket but this is the reason why he needed to play Duleep Trophy in place of Kaul or Baltej. 

 

As he is a very skiddy pacer bowling express, he can be invaluable in tests in Asia if he practices reverding the older red ball. 

 

Plus he can be handy in Australia or SA too as the ball flies there.

 

Sorry I don't believe in gifting somebody a place in zonal side.Umran if he wants to play FC he has to be serious and should be playing regular FC cricket before he is selected for zonal side.

 

Rana , let us see what he does, he is playing for India A and he is young.

 

How can anyone be valuable in tests outside India if he has no experience in putting his body thru rigors of FC.Umran has to play more FC for his state and then only should be considered for Zonal cricket, still he played Irani trophy last year.

 

Mukesh Kumar played in the same Irani trophy with Umran and Kuldeep and was MOM , he is in now in WI.

[putrevus]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Mukesh Kumar and Unadkat. 

 

 

The reason for just 11 games is because Vinay, Mithun and Arvind were preferred over him for their experience in the Karnataka playing 11.  

 

This happened repeatedly even when Prasidh was fit. 

So you are blaming KSCA ? Do you think they have anything against Krishna?

 

Past is past  Prasidh Krisna needs to stay fit before anything can be done for him.He has played for India based 11 FC matches so it is pretty good  indication on what selectors think about his talent but he has been injured most of time for anyone to consider him.

 

I don't blame Mukesh Kumar's selection, when in the same match he outbowls both Malik and Sen but they get selected and he is left high and dry is not fair for him.

 

Unadkat , I  have no idea, why is he playing for India.

[express bowling]

29 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sorry I don't believe in gifting somebody a place in zonal side.Umran if he wants to play FC he has to be serious and should be playing regular FC cricket before he is selected for zonal side.

 

How can Umran play enough FC if he is warming the bench in our LOI squads at the same time ????

 

29 minutes ago, putrevus said:

.

How can anyone be valuable in tests outside India if he has no experience in putting his body thru rigors of FC.Umran has to play more FC for his state and then only should be considered for Zonal cricket, still he played Irani trophy last year.

 

So let Umran play Ranji Trophy, Duleep Trophy etc. That is what I sm saying and NOT asking for his immediate inclusion in the test team.

 

29 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Mukesh Kumar played in the same Irani trophy with Umran and Kuldeep and was MOM , he is in now in WI.

 

Kuldeep Sen took 8 wickets in that match, including dismissing Pujara in both innings with snorters ( that is big wickets ).  Plus he picked wickets with the old ball when Mukesh looked innocuous.

 

While Mukesh got 5 wickets, primarily with the new ball. 

 

But Mukesh got MOTM. 

 

So, go figure which kind of people were making decisions. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by express bowling

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

 

How many of these guys you have named have similar fc stats as Gaja?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is having the best FC stats the objective for top international cricketers ?

 

Pat Cummins has worse FC stats than Gaja ( leaving out test matches ). That too while bowling on bouncy Australian pitches.

 

So, would you prefer Gaja over Cummins for a test side ?

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Is having the best FC stats the objective for top international cricketers ?

 

Pat Cummins has worse FC stats than Gaja ( leaving out test matches ). That too while bowling on bouncy Australian pitches.

 

So, would you prefer Gaja over Cummins for a test side ?

don't forget gagandeep singh, joginder sharma, basant mohanty, and others too. all domestic "legends"

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

How can Umran play enough FC if he is warming the bench in our LOI squads at the same time ????

 

 

So let Umran play Ranji Trophy, Duleep Trophy etc. That is what I sm saying and NOT asking for his immediate inclusion in the test team.

 

 

Kuldeep Sen took 8 wickets in that match, including dismissing Pujara in both innings with snorters ( that is big wickets ).  Plus he picked eickets eith the old ball when Mukesh looked innocuous.

 

While Mukesh got 5 wickets, primarily with the new ball. 

 

But Mukesh got MOTM. 

 

So, go figure which kind of people were making decisions. 

 

Dravid and co need to decide if Umran or any young player if they are selected in the squad .They should be playing some matches in the  series or be sent back.No point in warming the benches. My main complaint with Dravid and Rohit  is they have brought back trundler culture into Indian team.

 

 That is mindset of Dravid and selection process under him.

Edited July 13, 2023 by putrevus

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Those conditions are different ,even the ball is different.Someone like gaja is pretty good for ranji trophy,not easy to replace him .

 

Also Indians dont care for pace ,and if the stats are good then there is no reason to not pick him.

 

 

One of the objectives of Ranji Trophy and Duleep Trophy is to find players for the Indian test team. The other objective is to win matches. 

 

If State teams and Zonal teams are choosing all 11 players for meeting their short term goals then how will we find good test bowlers ??  

 

Whether Indians care about pace or not, if they are objective in their thinking, they should be able to observe that Gaja, Seth, Koushik, Nagasswala type pacers will never do well in international cricket.

 

So what is the plan to develop good international level.pacers ????

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by express bowling