Team India's squad for Asia Cup Announced - KL, Shreyas back and Tilak Varma included

[putrevus]

18 hours ago, AKane said:

If you are seeing it then you know even less about cricket. There are plenty of doubts one has talent when the scores to back it up are not there.

 

You can stuff the mumbo jumbo about mentally weak - show me the scores. Period.

The biggest problem is he gets treatment of a superstar. And he has been rewarded for his every failure.

 

Avg of 33 as an opener is putrid.

[Nikhil_cric]

11 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Imam will play & no way Ghulam is making it....  Agha Salman is definately playing. 

Usama won't play over Shadab who has hold on us since CT 2017 barring WC 2019 encounter. 

Shadab averages 43 with the ball since the beginning of 2019. He does not have a hold on anyone. Was played easily even by the Dutch. Mir is a much better spinner for 50 overs.  

 

Mubasir should be part of the squad and the backup for 4/5/6. Tayyab Tahir should be the backup for the Top 3. Mohammad Junaid - the spinning allrounder. And on 2nd thought, they should pick Arshad Iqbal ahead of Rauf considering his current abilities. I'm pretty certain that group would be their best squad of 15.

 

That squad can not just beat but thrash India. If that doesn't wake the BCCI up, nothing will.

 

 

[Vijy]

30 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Shadab averages 43 with the ball since the beginning of 2019. He does not have a hold on anyone. Was played easily even by the Dutch. Mir is a much better spinner for 50 overs.  

 

Mubasir should be part of the squad and the backup for 4/5/6. Tayyab Tahir should be the backup for the Top 3. Mohammad Junaid - the spinning allrounder. And on 2nd thought, they should pick Arshad Iqbal ahead of Rauf considering his current abilities. I'm pretty certain that group would be their best squad of 15.

 

That squad can not just beat but thrash India. If that doesn't wake the BCCI up, nothing will.

 

 

nothing will - not even a small meteorite that crashes directly into HQ

[Suhaan]

On 8/3/2023 at 11:44 AM, Norman said:

So KL , Iyer and Pant are 100% ruled out of the World Cup now. Don't see the first two coming back straight into the tournament even if they recover. 

 

Asia Cup and the Australian ODIs should be used to build a capable middle order rather than usual stat padding. We should try Gill at 3, push Kohli down to 4, try Kishan and Samson at 5 and 6 for all games by playing one of Jadeja/Pandya at 7. 

Pant was out long before of this WC

[Suhaan]

18 hours ago, Vijy said:

tilak should be in the mix for LOIs. can bowl too

Any added ability gets eroded by TM think tank

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Any added ability gets eroded by TM think tank

yes, they will ideally want him to be a 1D tuk-tuker

[AKane]

6 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

In Rahul's case the observation that he has 'talent' is because he does have a lot of time when he bats and doesn't have any technical flaw that is immediately apparent nor can you really say there is a sure fire way to tie him down because of some serious limitations. And he does this while usually being quite elegant. In general talented strokeplayers who are not very unorthodox can be called talented without trying to split hairs

At this highest level - as at the highest level in all other sports - the measurements are different than at the grassroots or even middle level.

 

What all you said is true at the grassroots and at the middle level and someone can be deemed "talented".

 

Then comes performing at the highest level and muscle memory and eye hand coordination and what you have in the tank takes over. At that point esoteric definitions of talent are meaningless and talent becomes can you overcome the best your opponent(who is no slouch) can throw at you? 

 

At this level where the bowlers put in that extra, the talented batsman will face the best, raise his own level and come out standing. The untalented one who shows all the skills will fold like a cheap suit. It is passed off as mental but it is simply that the level needed to raise the game is not present. When the opponent raises their game at this level, you have to raise your game to match and exceed. If you cannot then it is not mental but you have hit your limit and you are not talented enough at this level.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by AKane

[AKane]

20 minutes ago, AKane said:

At this level where the bowlers put in that extra, the talented batsman will face the best, raise his own level and come out standing. The untalented one who shows all the skills will fold like a cheap suit. It is passed off as mental but it is simply that the level needed to raise the game is not present. When the opponent raises their game at this level, you have to raise your game to match and exceed. If you cannot then it is not mental but you have hit your limit and you are not talented enough at this level.

 

It is more apparent in individual sports where two players who look alike and play alike in Roger Federer and Grigor Dimitrov have vastly different results.

 

Dimi who is nicknamed "Baby Fed" because he looks so similar in style to Roger just does not have it especially past the QFs. It is not mental, that is his level.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by AKane

[the don]

6 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I hope PAK play

 

Saim

Fakhar

Babar

Rizwan

Kamran Ghulam

Agha/Mubasir

Amad Butt

Shaheen

Usama

Naseem

Ihsanullah/Rauf

 

It's the best they can throw at us and I suspect we will struggle against that lineup.

 

 

Why would they play Ghulam over iftikhar. Iftikhar is clutch and a very good six hitter of pace. Salman is far better than mubasir.Amad Butt is useless. Shady is better to take down spinners. Agree with Ihsanullah.

[the don]

Ihsanullah as the 3rd seamer back up to Rauf and Arshad iqbal as the new ball back up are worth a pick. Arshad’s new ball skills were brilliant. He moved the ball even in Pindi. 
Shaheen, Naseem and Usama Mir will give 30 of the highest quality overs possible in this format

[rollingstoned]

27 minutes ago, AKane said:

At this highest level - as at the highest level in all other sports - the measurements are different than at the grassroots or even middle level.

 

What all you said is true at the grassroots and at the middle level and someone can be deemed "talented".

 

Then comes performing at the highest level and muscle memory and eye hand coordination and what you have in the tank takes over. At that point esoteric definitions of talent are meaningless and talent becomes can you overcome the best your opponent(who is no slouch) can throw at you? 

 

At this level where the bowlers put in that extra, the talented batsman will face the best, raise his own level and come out standing. The untalented one who shows all the skills will fold like a cheap suit. It is passed off as mental but it is simply that the level needed to raise the game is not present. When the opponent raises their game at this level, you have to raise your game to match and exceed. If you cannot then it is not mental but you have hit your limit and you are not talented enough at this level.

 

 

Don't want this to turn into an expanding off topic convo. If your contention is that there is no such thing as 'talent' then I don't know what to tell you when so much of the game and especially team selections are predicated precisely on what you consider meaningless esotericism.

Yes it may be that a player chokes or cant give his best very often anyway and that has the same net result as someone who is out of his depth at the highest level but that is not the same as someone not having any of it in the first place which would be too much of a gross simplification. I see mentality and a good head as a multiplier which still needs the basic tools to matter in what is primarily a skill based sport. Someone who is too much of a mental midget ie pulling up trees when there's not much on the line at the same level but crapping the bed the minute there is has issues other than not being good enough skill wise if this is a consistent pattern. Not saying he deserves a rope only based on this though the Indian team backed Rohit sharma for a long time only based on his perceived talent. 

[rollingstoned]

1 hour ago, AKane said:

 

It is more apparent in individual sports where two players who look alike and play alike in Roger Federer and Grigor Dimitrov have vastly different results.

 

Dimi who is nicknamed "Baby Fed" because he looks so similar in style to Roger just does not have it especially past the QFs. It is not mental, that is his level.

 

 

I wouldn't compare Dimitrov and Federer just because they both have a 1h bh tbh even if he got called  baby fed prematurely because of that. If you had to compare Dimitrov it would have to be to those who are not quite good enough at winning slams with the big 3 but go deep anyway ie Berdych, Tsonga, Raonic, Thiem, Zverev etc. 

The problem is both skill as well as mentality in most such cases especially since the margins are quite fine at that level. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by rollingstoned

[AKane]

23 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

If your contention is that there is no such thing as 'talent' then I don't know what to tell you when so much of the game and especially team selections are predicated precisely on what you consider meaningless esotericism.

No we give him chances based on the "talent" that you outlined. He has been given enough chances to prove his lack of talent according to me. You can call it mental weakness in spite of talent. Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, the don said:

Why would they play Ghulam over iftikhar. Iftikhar is clutch and a very good six hitter of pace. Salman is far better than mubasir.Amad Butt is useless. Shady is better to take down spinners. Agree with Ihsanullah.

 

Iftikhar will get tied down by good spin bowling and by left-arm seamers. Looked worse than a minnow batsman while facing Adil Rashid in the World T20 final. Limited player. Basically, he can only line up predictable trajectories. Ghulam is more of a proper batsman. Mubasir is back up for the lower middle order. Amad Butt is your best seam-bowling all-rounder. The only proven one anyway. Shadab is a terrible ODI spinner and has been for years.  He takes down spin at a whopping strike rate of 70 in ODIs. Don't confuse T20s with ODIs.

[the don]

23 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

Iftikhar will get tied down by good spin bowling and by left-arm seamers. Looked worse than a minnow batsman while facing Adil Rashid in the World T20 final. Limited player. Basically, he can only line up predictable trajectories. Ghulam is more of a proper batsman. Mubasir is back up for the lower middle order. Amad Butt is your best seam-bowling all-rounder. The only proven one anyway. Shadab is a terrible ODI spinner and has been for years.  He takes down spin at a whopping strike rate of 70 in ODIs. Don't confuse T20s with ODIs.

English, aussies will murder Amad butt. Shadab is still a better allrounder i feel. Usama mir should play as the main spinner for sure. 
chacha will prove people wrong.

 

Tayyab Tahir is a better spin basher than Kamran Ghulam.

Edited August 4, 2023 by the don

[rollingstoned]

40 minutes ago, AKane said:

No we give him chances based on the "talent" that you outlined. He has been given enough chances to prove his lack of talent according to me. You can call it mental weakness in spite of talent. Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

 

Tbh Rahul continuing to get chances is more down to luck than talent since he was out of the team and came back in because of his white ball form in 2021 was just pure timing after which he hasn't looked back. He is sticking around because he is now considered a 'senior' who is an important part of the 'furniture'. Lol

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Any added ability gets eroded by TM think tank

they want to delete skills, instead of adding them, so that all players can be 1D like them

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, the don said:

English, aussies will murder Amad butt. Shadab is still a better allrounder i feel. Usama mir should play as the main spinner for sure. 
chacha will prove people wrong.

 

Tayyab Tahir is a better spin basher than Kamran Ghulam.

why not use Sahibzada Farhan in MO?

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, AKane said:

At this highest level - as at the highest level in all other sports - the measurements are different than at the grassroots or even middle level.

 

What all you said is true at the grassroots and at the middle level and someone can be deemed "talented".

 

Then comes performing at the highest level and muscle memory and eye hand coordination and what you have in the tank takes over. At that point esoteric definitions of talent are meaningless and talent becomes can you overcome the best your opponent(who is no slouch) can throw at you? 

 

At this level where the bowlers put in that extra, the talented batsman will face the best, raise his own level and come out standing. The untalented one who shows all the skills will fold like a cheap suit. It is passed off as mental but it is simply that the level needed to raise the game is not present. When the opponent raises their game at this level, you have to raise your game to match and exceed. If you cannot then it is not mental but you have hit your limit and you are not talented enough at this level.

 

 

 

Brilliant post !!

 

Ignoring this critical aspect you outlined is also one of the key reasons why we never produced ATG pacers before Bumrah. 

 

The Indian cricket fraternity always considered those pacers talented who could move the ball a bit and put them in the right areas against weaker batsmen, totally ignoring their pace and bounce. 

 

But come matches against big teams or big matches, the much superior batters or batters who are playing with intensity in big matches, totally massacred these slow pacers and did not allow them to put the ball in the right areas. So, the perceived accuracy is gone.

 

And these gentle bowlers could not put the opponent batters under psychological pressure either by bowling hostile spells. 

 

But stiil they remained the "talented" pacers by displaying their "art" against weak teams or in inconsequential matches.

 

 

 

P.S -- Very high quality debate with @rollingstoned , who has put forward some good points too.

Edited August 4, 2023 by express bowling

[the don]

42 minutes ago, Vijy said:

why not use Sahibzada Farhan in MO?

Sahibzada is limited. Has power but against quality spinners like Kuldeep and Rashid nobody knows.