What role will Ashwin play for the rest of the world cup ? Ashwin should be a no-brainer (vs. Shardul ) against SENA teams in knock-out games.

[Lord]

47 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Shami  is way better than Thakur in Indian conditions. Next option is Ashwin.  I don't think even Rohit trusts Thakur. He is just there as some kind of back up within the XI rather than an useful entity in some capacity.

 

Nah Thakur is better suited for Asian teams. Ashwin will play vs SENA or if its a confirmed turner. Its much easier to bowl 40 overs of pace than 30 overs of spin if required.

[sensible-indian]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Ball was turning throughout in Aus game. Ashwin was darting. After he came back lot of wickets had fallen and RR was low so he could flight it.

 

Same way in that ODI, we were defending 400 so he could bowl like a Test match.

 

Lacks courage otherwise or it maybe team direction. Nabi bowled much better yesterday on a flatter deck.

He didnt bowl as well as he should have. Could have attacked more.

 

But the pitch wasnt spinning as much earlier. Then it started turning much more and he looked more threatening but by then he had finished 6 overs.

 

He didnt pick aussie wickets via flight in that earlier chennai game either. All flatter deliveries.

 

My take is to see whether a bowler is bowling well generally cos over a long enough sample set things correct itself.

 

I agree Ashwin has been a bit phattu with attacking in ODI which is why he lost his spot in the first place.

[sensible-indian]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Nah Thakur is better suited for Asian teams. Ashwin will play vs SENA or if its a confirmed turner. Its much easier to bowl 40 overs of pace than 30 overs of spin if required.

These half measures usually blow up in our face.

 

What if some slogger asian thrashes Thakur?

 

Either Thakur is good enough for all or he is not good enough.

 

Same for Ashwin. Picking ashwin for lefties wont work if he is bowling horribly and thats exactky what happ in wt20 2022.

 

We need to move away from these half measures.

 

Either thakur finds form or you pick someone else and back him to come good.

 

This way a player is not under pressure every game and can focus on their role.

[Lord]

16 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

These half measures usually blow up in our face.

 

What if some slogger asian thrashes Thakur?

 

Either Thakur is good enough for all or he is not good enough.

 

Same for Ashwin. Picking ashwin for lefties wont work if he is bowling horribly and thats exactky what happ in wt20 2022.

 

We need to move away from these half measures.

 

Either thakur finds form or you pick someone else and back him to come good.

 

This way a player is not under pressure every game and can focus on their role.

 

Conditions and oppositions matter. Both are equally good/bad but are not good enough to do well in averse conditions. So its okay to rotate.

[sensible-indian]

15 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Conditions and oppositions matter. Both are equally good/bad but are not good enough to do well in averse conditions. So its okay to rotate.

Theoretically works. Practically doesn't.

 

If Shardul gets taken apart by an Asian team or Ashwin gets taken apart on by a leftie or on a turner..then it all comes crashing down.

 

The players are under pressure to perform every game and no one can bring their A game that way.

 

Unless the conditions are drastically different (say a complete patta or a seamer track), better to let players settle (assuming they aren't bad).

 

I am fine with testing to see whats the optimal XI but once you lock in, stick with it unless something really demands changes.

Edited October 17, 2023 by sensible-indian

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Theoretically works. Practically doesn't.

 

If Shardul gets taken apart by an Asian team or Ashwin gets taken apart on by a leftie or on a turner..then it all comes crashing down.

 

The players are under pressure to perform every game and no one can bring their A game that way.

 

Unless the conditions are drastically different (say a complete patta or a seamer track), better to let players settle (assuming they aren't bad).

 

I am fine with testing to see whats the optimal XI but once you lock in, stick with it unless something really demands changes.

 

Ofcourse anyone can get thrashed. You hedge your bets and give yourself best chance according to the conditions.

 

There is no locking of XI until they perform really well. Both are support players as of now so best to play them in friendly conditions.

 

As for backing, I think its communicated well in advance this will happen. Still its in their hands to give impact performances and get backed more.

[sensible-indian]

35 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Ofcourse anyone can get thrashed. You hedge your bets and give yourself best chance according to the conditions.

 

There is no locking of XI until they perform really well. Both are support players as of now so best to play them in friendly conditions.

 

As for backing, I think its communicated well in advance this will happen. Still its in their hands to give impact performances and get backed more.

Of course, they have to perform. No one gets a free run.

 

But a sword over your head in every game in a long tournament will never get you the best performance.

But this Asia vs SENA...and these match ups almost never work out in the end. Hedging your bets every game is risky. Seen that play out in IPL every year.

Edited October 17, 2023 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

I mean...if we are telling Shardul, we will back you against Asian teams and in certain conditions for the entire tournament unless you truly suck (in which case, we have to replace you)...then that's a more conducive environment for him to bowl.

 

But if the expectation is that Shardul must perform against certain teams in a select few games and if he flops badly in a game, he might never make the XI in the WC again, that changes the whole mental framework.

 

 

[Lord]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I mean...if we are telling Shardul, we will back you against Asian teams and in certain conditions for the entire tournament unless you truly suck (in which case, we have to replace you)...then that's a more conducive environment for him to bowl.

 

But if the expectation is that Shardul must perform against certain teams in a select few games and if he flops badly in a game, he might never make the XI in the WC again, that changes the whole mental framework.

 

 

 

That's exactly what it is.

[sensible-indian]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

That's exactly what it is.

He will get his chance. Not sure if he will be backed like others when he fails once.

 

Small but distinct difference.

[Nikhil_cric]

His World Cup is most likely over. It's a poor selection in the squad and just exposes our lack of a batting allrounder who bowls off spin.

 

Pakistan at Motera was the best place to play him. Ahead of Thakur.

 

 

[Adamant]

On 10/17/2023 at 12:07 AM, sensible-indian said:

Actually by the time it started turning, he had bowled 6 overs and taken out of spell after a couple of threatening overs.

 

Then he came back after a lot of wickets had fell, took green (fluke wicket) and then tail blocked him.

 

The same Ashwin killed the game against aus when he had a few overs to bowl when the pitch turned.

 

Its not all about final stats.

He is an impactless player in odis and also in tests in SEN.

[rangeelaraja]

45 minutes ago, Adamant said:

He is an impactless player in odis and also in tests in SEN.

 

Ashwin  conceeded only 34 runs in 10 overs and took 1 wicket in the only opportunity he got. 

 

ODI cricket is as much or more  about containment of runs as taking wickets and Ashwin did his job and applied pressure by stemming the flow of runs.

 

Shardul's straight up bowling is harmless on these wickets and his high economy rate releases all the pressure applied from the other end. 

 

Shardul's  batting form in the last 1 year has been nothing special.  If the team needs an extra batter - they would rather go for Ishan or SKY,  and Shami if extra bowler is required based on the pitch.

 

 Shardul is a total waste in the XI.

Edited October 18, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

He is an impactless player in odis and also in tests in SEN.

Better than this version (125 kph, no zip, nothing) Shardul, and anyway Shardul is a dud on Indian tracks. Shami or an extra batter in place of him in most games, Ashwin ahead of him in spin pitch, easy peasy. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Gollum

[Lone Wolf]

26 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Better than this version (125 kph, no zip, nothing) Shardul, and anyway Shardul is a dud on Indian tracks. Shami or an extra batter in place of him in most games, Ashwin ahead of him in spin pitch, easy peasy. 

I hope Ashwin has some magic left in him still and he comes good when needed...  Coz I don't see India beating NZ otherwise in a KO.  They have way too many left handers to trouble us in a possible low scoring or middling score scenario where they will come clutch due to our historical poor record against lefties. 

Conway Rachin Latham Chapman Santner...  Just way too many to deal with.  A team specially designed to negate Indian bowling. 

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I hope Ashwin has some magic left in him still and he comes good when needed...  Coz I don't see India beating NZ otherwise in a KO.  They have way too many left handers to trouble us in a possible low scoring or middling score scenario where they will come clutch due to our historical poor record against lefties. 

Conway Rachin Latham Chapman Santner...  Just way too many to deal with.  A team specially designed to negate Indian bowling. 

Ashwin is a must against NZ, have said this many times. We can't play NZ with the same strategy after all these defeats. Also want Kishan to slot in to counter Boult, Santner. And Jadeja the batsman too must be utilized. 

[Lord]

9 hours ago, Gollum said:

Ashwin is a must against NZ, have said this many times. We can't play NZ with the same strategy after all these defeats. Also want Kishan to slot in to counter Boult, Santner. And Jadeja the batsman too must be utilized. 

 

Who'd Kishan come in for?

[Gollum]

21 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Who'd Kishan come in for?

Atm Iyer. 

[Nikhil_cric]

The problems with 7 and 8 remain in this lineup. 

 

Jadeja's death hitting abilities have declined over the last 3 years 

 

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Look at that sharp decline in average and boundary percentage/strike rate as well. It's even more pronounced in ODI's.

 

Also, Shardul Thakur's record with the bat in recent times is also absolute crap

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/475281.html?class=2;spanmin1=06+Feb+2022;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

His bowling against Top 6 sides is also absolute crap in this period

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/475281.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=7;orderby=default;spanmin1=06+Feb+2022;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

He's a terrible selection in the squad, trundling at 134 kph with his low release and barely bowling 5 overs and giving a slow 10 runs,

 

Between these 2 "all-rounders" and Ashwin's selection in the squad, lie all the issues with respect to squad depth and choices we have.  

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[sensible-indian]

Shardul was supposed to be better bet against Bangladesh compared to spinners.

 

But spinners are going at 4 rpo while Shardul at 5.5-6.

 

This is why we cant just do horses for courses blindly.

Edited October 19, 2023 by sensible-indian