Umpire’s call

[Trichromatic]

12 minutes ago, MK55 said:

When there’s no predictive component, it just boils down to tracking the ball based of camera frames. It’s straight forward. Of course there will be a margin of error but that should be extremely marginal. And in any case way more accurate than what he umpires eyes suggest. 

Tennis has Hawkeye. They don’t have this umpires call nonsense. Cricket should get rid of it too. At least for that portion when there’s no actual ‘prediction’ of the ball trajectory. And for the later part, may be do some more back testing and calibrate the margin of error and have a threshold based decision boundary. 

 

 

It's not straightforward.

 

Factors invovled would be

1. That extremely marginal error with measurement which you're talking about. 

2. Error due to number of frames to determine frame in which ball hit the pad.

3. Error due to position of camera - those are placed high up.

4. Camera angles.

5. Pads don't have static position on the pitch.

 

All these combined won't be marginal.

[SRT100]

2 hours ago, Tillu said:

Even with the error margins and everything I have more trust in technology than these shady umpires.

This.

 

If its hitting the wickets, its out. This is what it should be.

 

I know the margins of error etc etc, but I would rather go with technology than allow a dodgy umpire to win a game for the team.

 

This way it prevents a team stealing a win.

[Lord]

If its hitting less than 50% its not out , 50 or more should be out.

 

Just simplify it.

[SRT100]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

If its hitting less than 50% its not out , 50 or more should be out.

 

Just simplify it.

The thing is though, you only need the ball to be hitting  the wicket just 1% for the bails to be dislodged (almost all the time).

 

The Laws will change as the technology improves, if anything it will make the game more exciting, I love a good DRS review.

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, SRT100 said:

The thing is though, you only need the ball to be hitting  the wicket just 1% for the bails to be dislodged (almost all the time).

 

The Laws will change as the technology improves, if anything it will make the game more exciting, I love a good DRS review.

 

yeah but its a prediction with its error margin. With 50% you are sure it will hit. 

[Lord]

2 hours ago, MK55 said:

When there’s no predictive component, it just boils down to tracking the ball based of camera frames. It’s straight forward. Of course there will be a margin of error but that should be extremely marginal. And in any case way more accurate than what he umpires eyes suggest. 

Tennis has Hawkeye. They don’t have this umpires call nonsense. Cricket should get rid of it too. At least for that portion when there’s no actual ‘prediction’ of the ball trajectory. And for the later part, may be do some more back testing and calibrate the margin of error and have a threshold based decision boundary. 

 

 

Because there's no prediction required.

[Lord]

At the end of the day, the DRS was introduced to eliminate howlers only. It has done it to large extent.

 

Can't complain about marginal decisions. Without DRS they would be umpires call anyway.

[Trichromatic]

6 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Because there's no prediction required.

 

He is talking about umpire's call in predicting where the ball has pitched.

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

At the end of the day, the DRS was introduced to eliminate howlers only. It has done it to large extent.

 

Can't complain about marginal decisions. Without DRS they would be umpires call anyway.

 

Yes, can't recall last time when we had howlers.

[SRT100]

5 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Yes, can't recall last time when we had howlers.

 

I can easily recall Kohli asking for DRS when he was bowled, that should be a howler lol.

[Norman]

10 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Yes, can't recall last time when we had howlers.

 

Kuldeep against Saud Shakeel.. one of the plumbest LBWs you'll ever see and the dikkhead Erasmus gave it not out. 

[Lord]

10 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Kuldeep against Saud Shakeel.. one of the plumbest LBWs you'll ever see and the dikkhead Erasmus gave it not out. 

yeah but DRS worked and that's what its for.

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

yeah but DRS worked and that's what its for.

 

Yes..just giving a recent example of a howler.

[cowboysfan]

the problems is with the technology.Hawkeye can be made better,ICC and sony both know it and they should be working on making it better.

[MK55]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Because there's no prediction required.

U mean tennis? 

Even in lbw, the ‘pitching in line’ and ‘impact in line’ parts, there’s no real prediction involved. I specified that. 

[putrevus]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It's not straightforward.

 

Factors invovled would be

1. That extremely marginal error with measurement which you're talking about. 

2. Error due to number of frames to determine frame in which ball hit the pad.

3. Error due to position of camera - those are placed high up.

4. Camera angles.

5. Pads don't have static position on the pitch.

 

All these combined won't be marginal.

They cannot be left as marginal calls,  they can modify them to ensure uniformity. They adopted the change from whole ball hitting to half a ball hitting .

 

They  can adopt a change to make marginal call as either out or not out.

Edited October 28, 2023 by putrevus

[coffee_rules]

7 hours ago, dilliboy said:

They are different events though..the impact on pads is an event which has already happened so there is no uncertainty whether the pad is in line with the stumps. Hence, no reason for umpire's call.

 

For the assessing whether the ball will hit the stumps, it still has to travel a certain distance hence there is uncertainty in its final trajectory. This is where umpire's call comes into play.

I thought I explained the technicality of Impact. It is not mere hitting the pads like the initial pitch ching. Maybe somebody else can be more clear

[coffee_rules]

7 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It's not only the prediction which has margin of error, but any measurement will have margin of error even when event has happened. 

 

https://www.the-mad-scientist.net/uncertainty-in-measurement.html

 

 

Although the ball has already hit the pads, determining that it was within line of stumps or not is not possible with 100% accuracy. Same goes with ball pitching in the line.

Aha! This is what I was trying to explain

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, Tillu said:

Even with the error margins and everything I have more trust in technology than these shady umpires. As Warner said the other day broadcasters should start displaying the umpiring stats.

 

At this point they should do away with Umpires call and give it out if it's hitting the stumps. Thats the only way to get rid of these dodgy umpires. Umpires call was brought in the first place to give some degree of autonomy to the umpires without which we don't even need them.

I thought the same before, but Nasser and Bhogle’s explanations made it clearer.  It is not to give umpires some say in the decision , but how to handle cases outside the margin of error of technology. 

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, MK55 said:

When there’s no predictive component, it just boils down to tracking the ball based of camera frames. It’s straight forward. Of course there will be a margin of error but that should be extremely marginal. And in any case way more accurate than what he umpires eyes suggest. 

Tennis has Hawkeye. They don’t have this umpires call nonsense. Cricket should get rid of it too. At least for that portion when there’s no actual ‘prediction’ of the ball trajectory. And for the later part, may be do some more back testing and calibrate the margin of error and have a threshold based decision boundary. 

 

It is not a simple two  dimensional tracking . The frames are 300/sec resolution with 6 camera to cover the angles. In tennis there is no predictive component. It is the simulation of the ball hitting the line at finer resolution. In cricket there is obstruction of pads, ball is predicted to hit the stumps or not. 
 

We have precision strike missile technology that tracks the trajectory of the missile. We can add nano particles in the ball where we can track how it would traverse. That would be a waste of technology and expensive. Until we have such technology, we have to deal with margin of error