Umpire’s call

[putrevus]

18 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I thought I explained the technicality of Impact. It is not mere hitting the pads like the initial pitch ching. Maybe somebody else can be more clear

umpires's call for impact is , unless the ball has hit more than 50 percent of the ball, it remains a umpire's call.

 

In tennis haweye is accepted even 1 percent of ball touching the line is accepted as IN. That is what cricket needs to adopt.

Edited October 28, 2023 by putrevus

[coffee_rules]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

If its hitting less than 50% its not out , 50 or more should be out.

 

Just simplify it.

I.e All current umpire’s call will be not out? 

[Lord]

Just now, coffee_rules said:

I.e All current umpire’s call will be not out? 

 

Yes. Unless the umpire call is out.

[putrevus]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

If its hitting less than 50% its not out , 50 or more should be out.

 

Just simplify it.

Ball hitting more 50% is out even now.It does not matter if it  umpire's call or not.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by putrevus

[coffee_rules]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

 

Kuldeep against Saud Shakeel.. one of the plumbest LBWs you'll ever see and the dikkhead Erasmus gave it not out. 

In his defense he’s a serial not-outer and also he thought there was bat involved. Chauthiya KL going by Erasmus decision was not insistent on a review. Good seamer prevailed Sharma went for it.

[MK55]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

It is not a simple two  dimensional tracking . The frames are 300/sec resolution with 6 camera to cover the angles. In tennis there is no predictive component. It is the simulation of the ball hitting the line at finer resolution. In cricket there is obstruction of pads, ball is predicted to hit the stumps or not. 
 

We have precision strike missile technology that tracks the trajectory of the missile. We can add nano particles in the ball where we can track how it would traverse. That would be a waste of technology and expensive. Until we have such technology, we have to deal with margin of error

I don’t think it’s rocket science in this day and age to literally just use the cameras and some computation to see where the ball pitched or hit the pad. I’m not talking about the the prediction of the trajectory later on.

 

Of course there is a margin of error for that too. But I bet if we do some back testing, the precision for those two components, where it pitched and where the impact was, will be way higher than human eyes. 

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ball hitting more 50% is out even now.It does not matter if it  umpire's call or not.

 

 

 

yes but reverse is not true. Umpire's call should not matter once its reviewed.

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, MK55 said:

U mean tennis? 

Even in lbw, the ‘pitching in line’ and ‘impact in line’ parts, there’s no real prediction involved. I specified that. 

This is like poori raat Ramayan suni aur pooche Sita koun hai?

[MK55]

Just now, coffee_rules said:

This is like poori raat Ramayan suni aur pooche Sita koun hai?

Lol u talk about prediction and then use the example of tennis? Are you even understanding what I’m trying to say?

 

The obstruction of the pad thing doesn’t matter if all you are trying to do is ‘see’ whether the ball impacted on the line of the stumps.

Also, are u seriously saying we need rocket science to ‘see’ things whether the ball pitched outside leg?

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

yes but reverse is not true. Umpire's call should not matter once its reviewed.

What do mean reverse is not true. If umpire gives not out and 50% of ball hits then it is overturned.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

What do mean reverse is not true. If umpire gives not out and 50% of ball hits then it is overturned.

 

I mean if it's less than 50%, it can both be out and not out based on umpire's decision. It should always be not out.

[putrevus]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

I mean if it's less than 50%, it can both be out and not out based on umpire's decision. It should always be not out.

That is what needs to be done.That will eliminate all the nonsense.

 

Teams will adapt and will be happy to accept that decision and move on.

[coffee_rules]

19 minutes ago, MK55 said:

Lol u talk about prediction and then use the example of tennis? Are you even understanding what I’m trying to say?

 

The obstruction of the pad thing doesn’t matter if all you are trying to do is ‘see’ whether the ball impacted on the line of the stumps.

Also, are u seriously saying we need rocket science to ‘see’ things whether the ball pitched outside leg?

Let’s first agree that Tennis and Cricket are different. There is no prediction in Tennis as there is no obstruction. They have high resolution camera that can TELL if the ball touched the line even at 1% of it. We can even make it 0.001% as there is no prediction but only high resolution camera technology.
 

There is no umpire’s call in pitching as you said. That is common part of technology between Tennis and Cricket. The predictive part is because of obstruction of pad, the impact in line of the stumps  and hitting of the stumps has to be predicted. 
 

As per LBW rules:

 

”

Even in the case of the ball pitching outside the off stump line and turning in towards the wickets, there are certain subtleties which must be considered before the batsman can be given out by LBW.

In this case, if the point of impact between the ball and the batsman's body is in line with the stumps and other conditions are met, they are out. This is called plumb LBW.“

 

The impact in line of stumps comes from the LBW rule!!!

Edited October 28, 2023 by coffee_rules

[MK55]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It's not straightforward.

 

Factors invovled would be

1. That extremely marginal error with measurement which you're talking about. 

2. Error due to number of frames to determine frame in which ball hit the pad.

3. Error due to position of camera - those are placed high up.

4. Camera angles.

5. Pads don't have static position on the pitch.

 

All these combined won't be marginal.

Good points. But don’t you thing that margin of error will be less than 50 percent of the ball area? I think that 50 percent number is probably reached arbitrarily as an ease of use metric without any statistical research.

Also, don’t u think that will be more accurate than a human eye standing so far away? 
 

And, regardless, surely they can get rid of the pitching the outside leg part.
The 360 degree angle, speed of the ball etc. are also applicable in Tennis for this particular use case.

 

The relative motion of the pads close to impact will play a role, but surely it will be less than 50 percent ball area margin. Or at least it should be. 
 

[dilliboy]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

It's not only the prediction which has margin of error, but any measurement will have margin of error even when event has happened. 

 

https://www.the-mad-scientist.net/uncertainty-in-measurement.html

 

 

Although the ball has already hit the pads, determining that it was within line of stumps or not is not possible with 100% accuracy. Same goes with ball pitching in the line.

There is no umpire's call for the ball pitching in line though 

[MK55]

7 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Let’s first agree that Tennis and Cricket are different. There is no prediction in Tennis as there is no obstruction. They have high resolution camera that can TELL if the ball touched the line even at 1% of it. We can even make it 0.001% as there is no prediction but only high resolution camera technology.
 

There is no umpire’s call in pitching as you said. That is common part of technology between Tennis and Cricket. The predictive part is because of obstruction of pad, the impact in line of the stumps  and hitting of the stumps has to be predicted. 
 

As per LBW rules:

 

”

Even in the case of the ball pitching outside the off stump line and turning in towards the wickets, there are certain subtleties which must be considered before the batsman can be given out by LBW.

In this case, if the point of impact between the ball and the batsman's body is in line with the stumps and other conditions are met, they are out. This is called plumb LBW.

However, if the point of impact between the ball and the batsman's body is outside the off stump line, the batsman can only be given out if they were not offering a shot, or in cricketing terms, didn’t intend to play the ball. If the batsman had made a genuine attempt at a shot but missed the ball, it is not out.” 

 

The impact in line of stumps comes from the LBW rule!!!

Of course, cricket lbw  is different than tennis. Where have I not said that lol? And mainly (among other reasons) coz 0f the prediction of the ball trajectory after impact.

 

You’re right about the removal of the umpires call part for where the ball pitched. My bad here. I was under the impression that there’s an umpire call thing even for that ridiculously obvious thing. I think they updated that and wasn’t the case when they introduced this thing.

 

Now the impact in the line of the stumps part - off course it’s more complicated than the pitching outside leg component but a loss less complicated than the prediction of the trajectory after impact part. Do u know where they came up with this ‘50 percent’ ball area part? Also they have the same 50 percent number even for the hitting the stumps part after impact. Like I said, these two aspects, ‘checking impact in line’ and ‘predicting hitting the stumps’, surely in real terms will have a different margin of error relative to each other. 
 

At least for starters, they should try and remove the umpires call thing for the impact in the line of the stumps part. I bet you don’t need 50 percent area to account for that margin of error over here specifically. Reduce that and get rid of umpires call. They gotta look at it relatively with how good that margin of error is wrt to a human standing 22 yards away.

[Trichromatic]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

umpires's call for impact is , unless the ball has hit more than 50 percent of the ball, it remains a umpire's call.

 

In tennis haweye is accepted even 1 percent of ball touching the line is accepted as IN. That is what cricket needs to adopt.

Tennis has static line to determine that. Impact in cricket is dynamic and requires imaginary line to understand whether it was in line with stumps. There is no imaginary line in tennis.

[bowl_out]

11 hours ago, MK55 said:

When there’s no predictive component, it just boils down to tracking the ball based of camera frames. It’s straight forward. Of course there will be a margin of error but that should be extremely marginal. And in any case way more accurate than what he umpires eyes suggest. 

Tennis has Hawkeye. They don’t have this umpires call nonsense. Cricket should get rid of it too. At least for that portion when there’s no actual ‘prediction’ of the ball trajectory. And for the later part, may be do some more back testing and calibrate the margin of error and have a threshold based decision boundary. 

 

 I agree. Umpire's call should only for predictive events, not for events that have already happened. 

Get rid of umpire's call for impact. I don't think they use it for where it pitched(?)

 

Umpire's call should stay for ball hitting stumps

[bowl_out]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

I mean if it's less than 50%, it can both be out and not out based on umpire's decision. It should always be not out.

 

That would result in too many not outs. This is the other extreme of Harbhajan's view. 

If the ball is hitting less than 50%, there is no way to conclusively say whether it is out or not out, so the umpire's decision stays and the team doesn't lose a review.

This rule is perfect. No need to change this.

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

That would result in too many not outs. This is the other extreme of Harbhajan's view. 

If the ball is hitting less than 50%, there is no way to conclusively say whether it is out or not out, so the umpire's decision stays and the team doesn't lose a review.

This rule is perfect. No need to change this.

 

Too many not outs is okay. Batsmen should be dismissed only if there is no doubt.

 

Currently same scenario can be out or not out based on umpire's decision. Allows bias to influence games.