When will this Shardul Thakur experiment end?

[AKane]

38 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

Siraj, Rohit, Kohli, Gill, Bumrah, Iyer have still clearly not recovered mentally.

This!!  Yes.

[Frustrated]

1 hour ago, BlueBlood said:

 

Why couldn't Rahul convert his 100 to 175? Because he has no hunger as he felt his job was done.

Coz Rahul had run out of partners at the other end.  He was batting with the tail when he got out.  Half the time he batted with the tail and had to mask the no.10 and 11.   Hard to play your natural game in such situation. Elgar didn't hv to bat with no.10 or 11.  

[AKane]

8 hours ago, ash said:

but no way is Thakur better than Ashwin in SENA or in India. 

Ashwin has

 

Aus 39 wickets at 42.15

England 14 wickets at 32.92

NZ 3 wickets at 33

SA 11 wickts at 49.63

 

So 67 wickets at approx avg 41.

 

Thakur has

Aus 7 wickets for 22.14

Eng 8 wickets at 33.37

SA  13 wickets at 25.38

 

So 28 wickets at approx avg 26.85

 

'Actually average wise Thakur is much better than Ashwin in SENA.

 

Look Thakur does not deserve to be in team currently - but in SENA Ashwin's record speaks for itself. Average of 41.

 

(I have not included WTC matches)

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

 

(I have not included WTC matches)

 

What are the overall stats for these 2 including the WTC Finals ?

[R!TTER]

8 hours ago, ash said:

no way is Thakur better than Ashwin in SENA

He is better but only marginally, however if the rest of your batters/bowlers suck his flaws would be exaggerated. The likes of Thakur/Sobers lite mask the deficiencies of your team when you're doing relatively well not when you're not!

[AKane]

58 minutes ago, express bowling said:

1 hour ago, AKane said:

 

(I have not included WTC matches)

 

What are the overall stats for these 2 including the WTC Finals ?

Ashwin 71 wickets at 39.30  - played NZ in Eng

Thakur 30 wickets at 28.5  - played Aus in Eng

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[AKane]

6 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

likes of Thakur/Sobers

Did you mention Thakur and Sobers in the same line? No man.... don't even go there!!!

[Adamant]

9 hours ago, ash said:

spinner and 5th bowler is the problem in SENA , and not the 3 and 4th seamers who were leaking runs left and right? 
 

if it is between Ashwin and Jaddu, Jaddu is the right choice, but no way is Thakur better than Ashwin in SENA or in India. 

Are you judging players based on one match?

 

Can you just look at Shardul Thakurs stats in SENA and compare them to Ashwin, why is he being blamed when a veteran like Ashwin has failed to win us anything in SENA.

 

OTOH Thakur has already won us Gabba, Oval and then he took a 7 fer in SA, why is he being treated as someone who always fails.

[Adamant]

34 minutes ago, AKane said:

Ashwin has

 

Aus 39 wickets at 42.15

England 14 wickets at 32.92

NZ 3 wickets at 33

SA 11 wickts at 49.63

 

So 67 wickets at approx avg 41.

 

Thakur has

Aus 7 wickets for 22.14

Eng 8 wickets at 33.37

SA  13 wickets at 25.38

 

So 28 wickets at approx avg 26.85

 

'Actually average wise Thakur is much better than Ashwin in SENA.

 

Look Thakur does not deserve to be in team currently - but in SENA Ashwin's record speaks for itself. Average of 41.

 

(I have not included WTC matches)

@sensible-indian

please try to look at stats instead of worshipping Ashwin

[sensible-indian]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

@sensible-indian

please try to look at stats instead of worshipping Ashwin

Statistically yeah.

 

Also there is no question abiut the fact that ashwin has botched some games in SENA.

 

But 100% flawed analysis.

 

I can do a series by series breakdown and this argument would crumble like a pack of cards.

 

---

 

Case in point, Ashwin averaged nearly 50 in Aus 2015 tour but that was a pretty good performance by an overseas spinner with zero support for pacers who were leaking at 3.5 - 4 rpo.

 

Fun fact, Lyon averaged the same in the games they played together insoite of bowling with vast superior attack.

 

--

 

Since that series, here are Ashwin's numbers in SENA

 

27 average in Aus

27 average in Eng

33 average in NZ

39 average in SA

 

This is all with untimely injuries, gazzilion drop catches in SA, etc.

 

Its one thing to run statsguru.

 

Another thing to glean proper insights from stats.

 

So continue playing with cricinfo stat filters and coming up with flawed analysis.

 

Im quite used to expecting it from our fans.

 

Just no interest in debating over it.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

5 hours ago, AKane said:

 

This is one way of looking at it. There is a more complicated way - when Thakur took Elgar wicket SA were 360/6. Prasidh and Thakur had taken 2 wickets and Bumrah and Siraj had taken 4.

 

Bumrah and Siraj took 1st and 2nd new ball plus the innings start and early morning bowl - and just 2 wickets more. Prasidh and Thakur bowled to set batsmen.

 

At 360/6 - the match was largely done no matter how much you want to emphasize the last 2 wickets taken heroically by Bumrah.

 

BTW not to nitpick but Bavuma did not bat so 214/7.

Their bad economy derailed the innings. So they went for lots without wickets too.

 

Had Elgar not got out in an unfortunate fashion, their figures would have been even worse.

 

This doesnt mean Bumrah and Siraj did the job. They didnt. But they didnt outright lose us the game like these 2.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[AKane]

6 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

This doesnt mean Bumrah and Siraj did the job. They didnt. But they didnt outright lose us the game like these 2.

If they didn't then they didn't.....

 

Yes they did outright lose us the game just like the other 2.

[AKane]

7 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Case in point, Ashwin averaged nearly 50 in Aus 2015 tour but that was a pretty good performance by an overseas spinner

No it is not a good performance regardless of anybody else.... excuses.

 

7 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

This is all with untimely injuries, gazzilion drop catches in SA, etc.

Only Ashwin has dropped catches - no one else....again excuses.

 

 

 

You were talking about series's.....OK....How about we look at most recent series - last one in SA? Because we are playing in SA.

 

In 2021 Ashwin played 3 matches and had 3 wickets at 60.60 per wicket. 

 

Just based on that he does not deserve to play this series as a specialist spinner. No need for excuses or hiding behind performance of pace bowlers.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

22 minutes ago, AKane said:

If they didn't then they didn't.....

 

Yes they did outright lose us the game just like the other 2.

Nope.

 

Many games at home, our spinners would keep it tight even if we don't pick wickets,....thus allowing us to comeback into the game.

[sensible-indian]

19 minutes ago, AKane said:

No it is not a good performance regardless of anybody else.... excuses.

 

Only Ashwin has dropped catches - no one else....again excuses.

 

 

 

You were talking about series's.....OK....How about we look at most recent series - last one in SA? Because we are playing in SA.

 

In 2021 Ashwin played 3 matches and had 3 wickets at 60.60 per wicket. 

 

Just based on that he does not deserve to play this series as a specialist spinner. No need for excuses or hiding behind performance of pace bowlers.

 

 

Again...if you actually knew what was going on, you wouldn't post this.

 

1. The LAST series in SA 2021 was Ashwin's ONLY bad series in SENA since 2015.

 

2. The series before that in SA, he averaged 30 in SA with gazzilion catches dropped.

 

(To put it in perspective, he should have got a 7fer or 8fer in Centurion. Not even making this up. Like actual catches dropped. Not half chances. Ended up with 4fer. That alone would take his series average from 30 to 19.)

 

Here are his SENA performances since 2015:

 

1. South Africa 2017-18 - Good series. Got injured in Centurion.

 

2. England 2018 - Good series. Got injured in the test before Southampton. Shouldn't have played Southampton.

 

3. Aus 2018. Won us Adelaide. Got injured.

 

4. NZ. One innings. 3 wickets. India got innings defeated.

 

5. Aus 2020. Series defining performance in 3 tests. Got injured.

 

6. WTC 2021 finals. Bowled well. Averaged 10. Dropped after this test.

 

7. SA 2021 - Bad series.

 

8. And here we are in SA 2023. He bowled pretty damn good.

 

Running statsguru without context will lead to ridiculous outcomes.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

My concern is run rate. Don't take wickets. Atleast be miserly.  WIckets will come. Siraj/Prasidh/Thakur all 3 were expensive.

[Adamant]

7 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Statistically yeah.

 

Also there is no question abiut the fact that ashwin has botched some games in SENA.

 

But 100% flawed analysis.

 

I can do a series by series breakdown and this argument would crumble like a pack of cards.

 

---

 

Case in point, Ashwin averaged nearly 50 in Aus 2015 tour but that was a pretty good performance by an overseas spinner with zero support for pacers who were leaking at 3.5 - 4 rpo.

 

Fun fact, Lyon averaged the same in the games they played together insoite of bowling with vast superior attack.

 

--

 

Since that series, here are Ashwin's numbers in SENA

 

27 average in Aus

27 average in Eng

33 average in NZ

39 average in SA

 

This is all with untimely injuries, gazzilion drop catches in SA, etc.

 

Its one thing to run statsguru.

 

Another thing to glean proper insights from stats.

 

So continue playing with cricinfo stat filters and coming up with flawed analysis.

 

Im quite used to expecting it from our fans.

 

Just no interest in debating over it.

How has that average of 27 helped us win anything, he has been the most ineffective spinner in English conditions. Any impact performances that you remember?

 

In Aus he has been fine, for sure had some impact there.

 

Failed tremendously is SA, I don’t know how are you defending that 39 average

 

Had zero impact in Nz as well, took tailenders wickets and never got us close to victory.

 

Shardul Thakur has already won us more SENA matches than Ashwin

 

[Adamant]

8 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Again...if you actually knew what was going on, you wouldn't post this.

 

1. The LAST series in SA 2021 was Ashwin's ONLY bad series in SENA since 2015.

 

2. The series before that in SA, he averaged 30 in SA with gazzilion catches dropped.

 

(To put it in perspective, he should have got a 7fer or 8fer in Centurion. Not even making this up. Like actual catches dropped. Not half chances. Ended up with 4fer. That alone would take his series average from 30 to 19.)

 

Here are his SENA performances since 2015:

 

1. South Africa 2017-18 - Good series. Got injured in Centurion.

 

2. England 2018 - Good series. Got injured in the test before Southampton. Shouldn't have played Southampton.

 

3. Aus 2018. Won us Adelaide. Got injured.

 

4. NZ. One innings. 3 wickets. India got innings defeated.

 

5. Aus 2020. Series defining performance in 3 tests. Got injured.

 

6. WTC 2021 finals. Bowled well. Averaged 10. Dropped after this test.

 

7. SA 2021 - Bad series.

 

8. And here we are in SA 2023. He bowled pretty damn good.

 

Running statsguru without context will lead to ridiculous outcomes.

SA 2018 was a bad series, took two tailenders wickets in the first test

 

In second match where we got a subcontinent type pitch, he again failed in the second series and that was his biggest opportunity ever to win a match in SENA.

 

How is England 18 a good series, what was the impact? Alasitairs cook wicket?

Go and watch Lyons performance there if you want to see what an actual good series looks like, not just inflated averages, actual match winning performances.

 

You are being intellectually dishonest here.

 

Aus 2018, good performance .

 

Nz 2020got tailenders wicket

 

Aus 2020, again a good performance 

 

WTC FINALS? Those second innings wickets which had no impact?

 

How is SA 23 good performance, is this your bar? One tailender wicket?

[sensible-indian]

8 minutes ago, Adamant said:

SA 2018 was a bad series, took two tailenders wickets in the first test

 

In second match where we got a subcontinent type pitch, he again failed in the second series and that was his biggest opportunity ever to win a match in SENA.

 

How is England 18 a good series, what was the impact? Alasitairs cook wicket?

Go and watch Lyons performance there if you want to see what an actual good series looks like, not just inflated averages, actual match winning performances.

 

You are being intellectually dishonest here.

 

Aus 2018, good performance .

 

Nz 2020got tailenders wicket

 

Aus 2020, again a good performance 

 

WTC FINALS? Those second innings wickets which had no impact?

 

How is SA 23 good performance, is this your bar? One tailender wicket?

2018 1st test - first test was played in a pukka pacers wicket. 

 

7 overs. 21 runs. 2 wickets.

1 over. 3 runs. 0 wickets.

 

My GOD...what a BAD performance. He should have taken a 5fer here. lol.

 

2018 2nd test. Centurion

 

That was the innings where he got a 4fer inspite of gazzilion dropped catches.

2nd innings he should have done better. Sadly he got injured. Split webbing. Not excusing him but it is what it is. A black mark on his career. Our pacers couldn't take wickets in 2nd innings while SA pacers did. 

 

England 2018. 1st test.

 

7 wickets for 121 runs at an average of 17 in Birghimgam.

 

England 2018. 2nd test.

 

Lord's green track. 1 innings. Wicketless for 68 runs.

 

England 2018. 3rd test. Got injured here.

 

1/47 in 23 overs 1 innings

 

England 2018. 4th test. Played with injury.

 

2/40 in 1st innings.

1/84 in 2nd innings

 

NZ test.

 

3/99 

 

Picked Henry Nicholls, Colin DeGrandhomme and Kylie Jamieson.

 

Not even a single tailender. 

 

Aus 2020.

 

Killer performance in each test. On track to be Man of the series until Syndey.

 

WTC finals 2021

 

He broke through when our pacers shat the bed. 2 wickets in first innings.

 

Had it not been for Ashwin, who knows what would have happened in the first innings.

 

Then 2nd innings, he picked 2 more. Could have been Williamson too but he took the DRS as a hail mary (in his own words) and somehow escaped.

 

Kohli LITERALLY TOOK ASHWIN out of the attack in 2nd innings while he was doing great and kept pacers till the end..and then dropped him for whole of England series,

 

---

 

Are YOU accusing me of intellectual dishonesty when you called Ashwin's WTC finals performance as impactless? 

 

Wow.

 

The facts are speaking VOLUMES here.

 

As I said, these discussions bore me.

 

But I have a bad habit of getting myself dragged into it.

 

Shardul Thakur more impactful than Ash in SENA?

 

LMAO.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

35 minutes ago, Adamant said:

How has that average of 27 helped us win anything, he has been the most ineffective spinner in English conditions. Any impact performances that you remember?

 

In Aus he has been fine, for sure had some impact there.

 

Failed tremendously is SA, I don’t know how are you defending that 39 average

 

Had zero impact in Nz as well, took tailenders wickets and never got us close to victory.

 

Shardul Thakur has already won us more SENA matches than Ashwin

 

Except for Southampton, he has performed well in England but India were never in a position to win games.

 

2014 test - Oval - He picked 3 wickets. We lost innings defeat.

 

2018 Birmingham - He picked 7 wickets. We still lost.

 

Lord's - Barely bowled. Green track.

 

Nottingham - We won. He barely bowled.

 

WTC FInals - He did great but we lost.

 

"Had zero impact in Nz as well, took tailenders wickets and never got us close to victory."

 

WRONG. See my other post.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian