MoM - Jadeja

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, cricspirit said:

 

I have not seen the stats of those players in question to confirm or deny the stats but -

You think its not important to perform against lower ranked teams and those performances do not matter / need no talent ? Lower rank team means opposition did not have a good bowler or batter ? Lower ranked team means their playing conditions were great and took less effort/talent to perform ?

 

Lets flip it and think how come the performance of these greater players goes down against lesser teams/lesser quality players. What happens to their ability or motivation ? goes missing ?

 

Every performance for your team matters. Some people perform very good against specific teams which can happen to be top teams. lets say VVS Laxman against Australia. 

 

In all Botham, Kapil, Ponting, Lara were all great players. who places whom above or lower is subjective to many interpretations including personal preference. In here for example, I do not agree on Botham/Kapil but I agree on Lara greater than Ponting. I even put Dravid above Ponting.

it is simple logic that to be the best, you have to perform against the best. In every sport, performance against the best competition is the decisive element when ranking people, instead of racking up stats against soft opposition and failing against good ones.

 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

 

You have to be really extraordinary to turn from an ATG fast bowlers who averages 20-21 for first 70 tests to become a proper batter averaging 37 in next 18 tests.

 

He has a bat avg +6 higher than Kapil and a bowl Avg -6 lower than Kapil too. The difference is massive. 

Yeah but as i said, if you spend half your career being a bowler who can bat a bit and then the other half as a batter who can bowl a bit, you may have better career stats than a guy who's been good at both all his career, but in actual day to day basis, the latter would be considered a better allrounder value than the former. 

 

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Yeah but as i said, if you spend half your career being a bowler who can bat a bit and then the other half as a batter who can bowl a bit, you may have better career stats than a guy who's been good at both all his career, but in actual day to day basis, the latter would be considered a better allrounder value than the former. 

 

 

Let's put this way. If you have such performers in the team, no matter how great they are, you have to either play extra bowler or batter in the team and captain won't really have that luxury which is associated with all rounders.

[Majestic]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Yeah but as i said, if you spend half your career being a bowler who can bat a bit and then the other half as a batter who can bowl a bit, you may have better career stats than a guy who's been good at both all his career, but in actual day to day basis, the latter would be considered a better allrounder value than the former. 

 

That makes sense. But Imran was an ATG bowler for 70 tests picking 330 wickets at 21 and in this time frame, he was also averaging 32 with bat. So, we have a top tier ATG bowler and a Pollock level bat( slightly below Kapil with bat). Then in next 17 tests, he was a proper batsman who would pick 40 wickets in 17 games. 

 

So, for 70 tests, we are basically talking about a top tier ATG bowler who was a decent bat( slightly below Botham and Kapil). Then next 18 tests, he was a great bat and a decent bowl. 

[sensible-indian]

12 hours ago, Majestic said:

I would consider these names as top 5 test all rounders in international cricket in last 60 years:-

 

Sobers

Imran

Kallis

Botham

Kapil

 

Has Jadeja done enough to replace Botham or Kapil from this list?

Why no Hadlee?

 

Hadlee was unreal with the ball and decent with the bat playing for an poor team.

[Vijy]

12 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Why no Hadlee?

 

Hadlee was unreal with the ball and decent with the bat playing for an poor team.

because he was a very poor bat compared to the others. he was a weaker bat than kallis (or sobers) were with the ball. he has a few 100s and some 50s, but I remember a lot of them coming in rather inconsequential matches.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Vijy said:

because he was a very poor bat compared to the others. he was a weaker bat than kallis (or sobers) were with the ball. he has a few 100s and some 50s, but I remember a lot of them coming in rather inconsequential matches.

Ok fair enough.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Ok fair enough.

one other point is that he didn't do that well in bowling vs the two strongest teams of the 80s when playing in their backywards: WI (i.e., didn't play enough tests in WI) and Pak (bowling avg of 45).

 

He was still an amazing bowler, just to be clear, one of the very best of his era - maybe only next to Marshall and potentially Garner

[cricspirit]

The very fact that Jadeja is in consideration among the best of all time is good enough. He has achieved good enough in cricket. For someone who does not have the fanfare associated with big names, he has done well for himself and India.

 

He has won 10 MOM awards in 70 tests. Very good ratio per tests played. He is same as Kumble (10), Virat (10) and one more than Ashwin(9) all of whom have played more tests. Only Indians ahead of him are Dravid (11) and Sachin (14) having played more than double tests. Sehwag and Kapil have 8 each. He has also lost out multiple times to a batter. Ashwin has more man of series awards because he takes buckets of wickets overall. 

 

Jadeja/Ashwin Combo will be a loss to India and I do not think we have same quality in backup. They just are not celebrated and valued as much as our batting stars. I would say they had even less fans and media space than Hardik Pandya even and Hardik has done nothing. 

 

Edited February 19 by cricspirit

[R!TTER]

I bet half of Sobers lite's fanboys/girls are paid stooges or maybe fans of KJo as well?

[sensible-indian]

33 minutes ago, Vijy said:

one other point is that he didn't do that well in bowling vs the two strongest teams of the 80s when playing in their backywards: WI (i.e., didn't play enough tests in WI) and Pak (bowling avg of 45).

 

He was still an amazing bowler, just to be clear, one of the very best of his era - maybe only next to Marshall and potentially Garner

I see....

 

Was it like he constantly failed or he had a bad series during the start or end of his career?

 

Cos career country stats can be misleading...steyn averages 30 in both Eng and Aus but he picked 5 wickets per test and was imapctful.

[Vijy]

38 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I see....

 

Was it like he constantly failed or he had a bad series during the start or end of his career?

 

Cos career country stats can be misleading...steyn averages 30 in both Eng and Aus but he picked 5 wickets per test and was imapctful.

Pak pitches were rather flat, and their batters were good at handling swing (thanks to county experience). As for WI, he didn't play enough there as I wrote. may have done either better or worse with more matches.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, sensible-indian said:

Why no Hadlee?

 

Hadlee was unreal with the ball and decent with the bat playing for an poor team.

I think you have got the answer by now. 

But that leaves my question still unanswered 

 

Has Jadeja done enough to go ahead of Kapil or Botham in Test cricket?

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

one other point is that he didn't do that well in bowling vs the two strongest teams of the 80s when playing in their backywards: WI (i.e., didn't play enough tests in WI) and Pak (bowling avg of 45).

 

He was still an amazing bowler, just to be clear, one of the very best of his era - maybe only next to Marshall and potentially Garner

Naah. I wouldn't pick Hadlee ahead of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts & imran. 

[Vijy]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Naah. I wouldn't pick Hadlee ahead of Marshall, Garner, Holding, Roberts & imran. 

I would pick him over Imran, maybe Roberts too. However, I don't want to derail the thread here.

[sensible-indian]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

Pak pitches were rather flat, and their batters were good at handling swing (thanks to county experience). As for WI, he didn't play enough there as I wrote. may have done either better or worse with more matches.

I would honestly exclude Pak pitches if he played just a few games. They sometimes were notoriously flat. Like unreal flat.

 

WI if the sample set is not solid, maybe we can't hold that against Hadlee.

[sensible-indian]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

I think you have got the answer by now. 

But that leaves my question still unanswered 

 

Has Jadeja done enough to go ahead of Kapil or Botham in Test cricket?

Hard to answer.

 

Best is to let his career play out.

[Sooda]

We need to wrap him up for tests and keep away from all LOIs including t20 wc

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, Sooda said:

We need to wrap him up for tests and keep away from all LOIs including t20 wc

yes, he is not well suited for LOIs