'Why somebody else gets more games to fail and I get only one?': R Ashwin on making 'peace' with disappointments

[vvvslaxman]

23 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I agree he turned the situation around comfortably in last 2 tests, but I didn't care much for him in first 3 tests. he is 37 and does not have andi-like fitness. 1 more year and then he should be phased out

 

Lot more guys to be phased out before India's spin twins. It is better Kuldeep grow with these 2 guys for some more time.

[Gollum]

26 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I agree he turned the situation around comfortably in last 2 tests, but I didn't care much for him in first 3 tests. he is 37 and does not have andi-like fitness. 1 more year and then he should be phased out

Come on man, you went overboard with praising these English spinners, including Root 

 

Just admit it, we all go wrong sometimes. 

[putrevus]

10 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Yes but he can't complain about getting dropped overseas. In India he's the first pick

He did not complain, he expressed regret which is natural. I think like any human being  he felt it.It is not big deal.

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Come on man, you went overboard with praising these English spinners, including Root 

 

Just admit it, we all go wrong sometimes. 

he did get outbowled by root in first test. I wasn't wrong there, but yep, I was wrong overall

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Lot more guys to be phased out before India's spin twins. It is better Kuldeep grow with these 2 guys for some more time.

he's 29, and has played a dozen tests now. he should become a regular now. there's no need for ashwin beyond a year from now.

[Lord]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

He did not complain, he expressed regret which is natural. I think like any human being  he felt it.It is not big deal.

lol he did complain. No one expresses regret in words 'Why did X get this but not me?'. Thats a complaint. Regret would have been if he acknowledged his batting decline.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

lol he did complain. No one expresses regret in words 'Why did X get this but not me?'. Thats a complaint. Regret would have been if he acknowledged his batting decline.

he should come below kuldeep on current batting form, perhaps even below akash deep (if he plays)

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

lol he did complain. No one expresses regret in words 'Why did X get this but not me?'. Thats a complaint. Regret would have been if he acknowledged his batting decline.

No i watched the interview. At no point he complained. Interviewers put him in a spot about that. He merely said team management decide what is best for the team and go with that. He didn't say he was unhappy about his omission. Yes. He was the highest wicket taker in both WTC cycle not just for India for the entire world. Was world no. ranked bowler. In the first WTC final he was not the one who failed. It was Bumrah. Second WTC final right after BGT home series where he did well he was dropped. They preferred declining Thakur/washed up Umesh over him

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he should come below kuldeep on current batting form, perhaps even below akash deep (if he plays)

Everyone should be wary of going overboard. Moment Kuldeep shows a dip in form we will be throwing him under bus much like we are doing with Ashwin now.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Everyone should be wary of going overboard. Moment Kuldeep shows a dip in form we will be throwing him under bus much like we are doing with Ashwin now.

It's not about throwing Ashwin under the bus because of one middling series. It is two things: (1) no high-quality spinner has done well beyond 37-38 in the last few decades; (2) his accuracy has taken a dip, and his line got affected.

 

In contrast, Kuldeep is at the peak of his powers. It is true that he will also see a dip sometime, but until then, he should be given higher preference over Ashwin... And it's not as though I am hyping Kuldeep; I wrote about his mental issues in this thread, or a related one

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Lot more guys to be phased out before India's spin twins. It is better Kuldeep grow with these 2 guys for some more time.

Kuldeep looks ready and if he isnt given regular chances now, he is likely to lose confidence. 

 

I think India should opt for a 3+2 option with Jaddu in the team, 3 spinners for India, 2 spinners for overseas. We do not have 4 quality seamers to make a 4 prong attack overseas, as i think Kuldeep/Ashwin are better bowlers than Siraj and that leaves just 3 pacers at best case scenario - Boom, Shami and Akash. 

 

wrist spinners always put more revs on the ball than finger spinners, so overseas Kuldeep should be given priority over Ashwin.

Overall i do agree with @Vijy that Ash should be wound down in the next 1-2 years. Unless he retires within this timeframe, we have to use him like Anderson is used a year from now- play him 2 matches, then rest, etc. 

 

[Vijy]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Kuldeep looks ready and if he isnt given regular chances now, he is likely to lose confidence. 

 

I think India should opt for a 3+2 option with Jaddu in the team, 3 spinners for India, 2 spinners for overseas. We do not have 4 quality seamers to make a 4 prong attack overseas, as i think Kuldeep/Ashwin are better bowlers than Siraj and that leaves just 3 pacers at best case scenario - Boom, Shami and Akash. 

 

wrist spinners always put more revs on the ball than finger spinners, so overseas Kuldeep should be given priority over Ashwin.

Overall i do agree with @Vijy that Ash should be wound down in the next 1-2 years. Unless he retires within this timeframe, we have to use him like Anderson is used a year from now- play him 2 matches, then rest, etc. 

 

yes, I agree. we should be selective with using Ashwin. I am not advocating for dropping him or anything that extreme. just use him sparingly, and grow kuldeep slowly into the role. Ashwin can still be around for a year or so.

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Kuldeep looks ready and if he isnt given regular chances now, he is likely to lose confidence. 

 

I think India should opt for a 3+2 option with Jaddu in the team, 3 spinners for India, 2 spinners for overseas. We do not have 4 quality seamers to make a 4 prong attack overseas, as i think Kuldeep/Ashwin are better bowlers than Siraj and that leaves just 3 pacers at best case scenario - Boom, Shami and Akash. 

 

wrist spinners always put more revs on the ball than finger spinners, so overseas Kuldeep should be given priority over Ashwin.

Overall i do agree with @Vijy that Ash should be wound down in the next 1-2 years. Unless he retires within this timeframe, we have to use him like Anderson is used a year from now- play him 2 matches, then rest, etc. 

 

Have plenty of talented quick bowlers. Need to pick one.

Rana, tyagi, Sen, himanshu and a couple of others I am missing for sure. 

[Muloghonto]

14 minutes ago, Kron said:

Have plenty of talented quick bowlers. Need to pick one.

Rana, tyagi, Sen, himanshu and a couple of others I am missing for sure. 

None of them are impressive enough with the old ball. Thats the main thing. If you pick a 4 prong pace attack, at least 1-2 of them need to be good pacers with the old ball. Else it doesn't work. To be good with the old ball, you need at least one of : serious pace, steep bounce, ability to reverse the ball. 

You cannot just take a Bhuvaneshwar Kumar type swing bowler and toss him the ball when the ball is 20 overs old and expect it to work.

There's a reason why its only west indies of the old who fielded a 4 prong pace attack- its not because teams like Australia/South Africa/England can't find 4 proper pacers in their country. 

 

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

None of them are impressive enough with the old ball. Thats the main thing. If you pick a 4 prong pace attack, at least 1-2 of them need to be good pacers with the old ball. Else it doesn't work. To be good with the old ball, you need at least one of : serious pace, steep bounce, ability to reverse the ball. 

You cannot just take a Bhuvaneshwar Kumar type swing bowler and toss him the ball when the ball is 20 overs old and expect it to work.

There's a reason why its only west indies of the old who fielded a 4 prong pace attack- its not because teams like Australia/South Africa/England can't find 4 proper pacers in their country. 

 

Boom could become 1st change (like Donald from his late-mid career onward), and Shami could be 2nd change, in which we would need 2 new ball experts.

[Muloghonto]

35 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Boom could become 1st change (like Donald from his late-mid career onward), and Shami could be 2nd change, in which we would need 2 new ball experts.

Don't like that idea. Our bowlers should bowl at their best suited spots. Shami & boom are best suited as opening bowlers who come back when the ball is 40+ overs old. Opening with Siraj just so that we can play 4 pacers seems like a forced option than a logical option.

 

[Kron]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

None of them are impressive enough with the old ball. Thats the main thing. If you pick a 4 prong pace attack, at least 1-2 of them need to be good pacers with the old ball. Else it doesn't work. To be good with the old ball, you need at least one of : serious pace, steep bounce, ability to reverse the ball. 

You cannot just take a Bhuvaneshwar Kumar type swing bowler and toss him the ball when the ball is 20 overs old and expect it to work.

There's a reason why its only west indies of the old who fielded a 4 prong pace attack- its not because teams like Australia/South Africa/England can't find 4 proper pacers in their country. 

 

They can man. Need to groom them

There are some real quality gems there.

 

Also I forget Mayank yadav

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Don't like that idea. Our bowlers should bowl at their best suited spots. Shami & boom are best suited as opening bowlers who come back when the ball is 40+ overs old. Opening with Siraj just so that we can play 4 pacers seems like a forced option than a logical option.

 

Shami's very good with the old ball. this is how I would envision a 4-bowler pace attack:

 

new ball bowler #1: akash deep, siraj (?)

new ball bowler #2: bumrah or shami

first-change: bumrah or shami

4th pacer: ??

 

learning to bowl well with an older ball is a specialist skill that should be explicitly sought by state/nat'l selectors. I feel that peak Thakur used to do quite well as 4th pacer, and at that time, he contributed with the bat too. now, however, he's clearly declined on both fronts.

 

there is something about mayank yadav that I like, though he has virtually no FC experience. if groomed well, he could be an enforcer with the older ball. it's not gonna happen overnight, but with proper planning, it can happen in a couple of years.

 

harshit rana seems more of a new ball bowler to me. tyagi is another mercurial talent

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Kron said:

They can man. Need to groom them

There are some real quality gems there.

 

Also I forget Mayank yadav

ok since you know of them, tell me which one of these bowlers has those attributes ? Given that these guys are all under 6'4 or so, i highly doubt they can get steep bounce. So which one of them have stinging pace (145kph+ as their stock ball) ? 

These 3 attributes are a **MUST** for a 3rd/4th pacer to be effective. If you notice 4 pacers playing, the 3rd/4th pacer ALL have one of these attributes - such as Garner & Walsh (3rd/4th bowlers in their team) had steep bounce. Akhtar had searing pace. Same story with the South African 4 prong attacks of the 90s & early 2000s - Hayward, Ntini were consistently in the 145kph range, etc. You can't 'groom them' to have these attributes, these are natural in bowlers.

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Shami's very good with the old ball. this is how I would envision a 4-bowler pace attack:

 

new ball bowler #1: akash deep, siraj (?)

new ball bowler #2: bumrah or shami

first-change: bumrah or shami

4th pacer: ??

 

learning to bowl well with an older ball is a specialist skill that should be explicitly sought by state/nat'l selectors. I feel that peak Thakur used to do quite well as 4th pacer, and at that time, he contributed with the bat too. now, however, he's clearly declined on both fronts.

 

there is something about mayank yadav that I like, though he has virtually no FC experience. if groomed well, he could be an enforcer with the older ball. it's not gonna happen overnight, but with proper planning, it can happen in a couple of years.

 

harshit rana seems more of a new ball bowler to me. tyagi is another mercurial talent

 

No, he is not. Shami and Bumrah are really good with the ball being 40-50+ overs old. They are just quick enough to get reverse swing going. Shami is not that effective as 1st/2nd change bowler, aka bowling with the 20-40 overs old ball. And it would be a crying shame to take Bumrah, a devastatingly good opening bowler and shunt him to a 3rd bowler role- you can't take your best pacer and make him come 1st change, especially when he is your only alltime great level pacer.
Thakur was adequate stop-gap because he was tight, but your 3rd/4th pacer cannot be a 20-5-60-1 kind of bowler (that is what Thakur was)- if thats the deal, you are better off taking a spinner or two, especially if you have really good wristspinners like Kuldeep around- unless your 3rd/4th bowler are bowlers like Walsh/Garner/Ntini/Hazlewood/Akhtar etc, you have no chance of being an impactful 3rd/4th seamer. All these guys spend a good chunk of their careers being 1st/2nd change bowlers , meaning 3rd/4th seamers and all of them had either searing pace or trampoline bounce due to height. 

 

Edited March 10 by Muloghonto