Wimbledon Men’s final 2024: Alcaraz vs Djokovic

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Kron said:

Yea recent numbers went up for wta. I don't personally ever watch wta or any women sport in general but good for them. 

 

However men will still overshadow them in the future regardless in tennis unless a crazy good Asian female player wins and has a huge following in their resp3ctive country. 

oraiiiii

[Dil Dil India]

6 hours ago, Kron said:

Federer also has a losing record to kalfenikov and rafter. 

Winning record vs Samples and Agassi and vs Nadal in HC+Grass. Was ahead vs Djokovic too until 36. Let's see where Djokovic ends.with Alcaraz. Already 0-2 in GS finals to join 0-2 vs Stan in gs finals. Not to mention losing multiple finals to Murray

 

[Kron]

38 minutes ago, Dil Dil India said:

Winning record vs Samples and Agassi and vs Nadal in HC+Grass. Was ahead vs Djokovic too until 36. Let's see where Djokovic ends.with Alcaraz. Already 0-2 in GS finals to join 0-2 vs Stan in gs finals. Not to mention losing multiple finals to Murray

 

You can manipulate stats to make any one of the 3 to be the best tbh. All 3 are good in their own way. But djoker did benefit the most from weak era. Nadal played in the toughest era ever. He always had the toughest schedule. My fav

[AKane]

1 hour ago, Dil Dil India said:

Murray's hip injury,

Before that Murray did not help himself when he replaced Ivan Lendl with Amelie Mauresmo as coach. 

[Dil Dil India]

3 minutes ago, AKane said:

Before that Murray did not help himself when he replaced Ivan Lendl with Amelie Mauresmo as coach. 

Yes agreed but point was Djokovic systematically had his threats removed by the God's. Thiem was blocking him at RG, injured. Murray was blocking him on grass, injured. Add to that the worst Gen ever.

[express bowling]

Alcaraz is insanely talented and has the temperament to win big matches and moments. 

 

Such a complete game ....

 

.. Big and accurate first serve

.. But varies the speed of his first serves and hence not predictsble

.. Good kick serve at good pace ( 2nd serves )

.. Vicious forehand

.. Solid double-handed backhand 

.. Decent drop shots

[nevada]

18 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Both of them will lose to Sampras of 93. Sampras is the real king of wimbledon. Becker who is another great player in fast grass had no chance of beating pistol pete.

Totally agree! He was an immovable rock at Wimbledon. His serve was so clutch and there's no way he loses to baseline players on his turf.  It is due to his and other big servers' utter dominance that tennis went in the direction of slowed down balls and court conditions. Fed is great, he matched Borg's 5 in a row which was a fabled, unique record and ended up with 1 Wimbledon more than Sampras, but for me, he is still #2 in terms of dominance at Wimbledon.

[Real McCoy]

9 minutes ago, nevada said:

Totally agree! He was an immovable rock at Wimbledon. His serve was so clutch and there's no way he loses to baseline players on his turf.  It is due to his and other big servers' utter dominance that tennis went in the direction of slowed down balls and court conditions. Fed is great, he matched Borg's 5 in a row which was a fabled, unique record and ended up with 1 Wimbledon more than Sampras, but for me, he is still #2 in terms of dominance at Wimbledon.

 

I don't know who said this - Courier or Agassi, but one of them had the opinion that Sampras was a cold blooded killer when serving. He has never lost serves at important moments like Federer. It was not just the quality of the serving but the instinct behind them.

[Real McCoy]

12 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

AO : Fed 2007 vs Nadal 2009 vs Djokovic 2016...I honestly don't see Djokovic 2016 as good as he was beating Fed 2007 or Nadal 2009 more often than not.

 

RG: Fed 2011 vs Nadal 2006 vs Djokovic - choose your year I am going with 2011 - he beats anyone except Fed or Nadal that year and this version would beat all his RG winning versions.

 

Wimbledon: Fed 2006 vs Nadal 2008 vs Djokovic 2015. Fed takes this with Nadal 08 and Djokovic 15 being a dogfight.

 

 

USO: Fed 2006 vs Djokovic 2011 vs Nadal 2013. In a pure 1 vs 1match up I could give this to Nadal. Djokovic 2011 vs MPs down to 30 year old Fed.

 

Honestly Djokovic has merely outlasted Nadal and Fed and his Wimbledon and RG count in particular are vastly inflated. Murray's hip injury, Federer fading away with knee surgeries and Nadal injuring one part every 2 months did help him. The ones who could threaten him like Stan and Delpo also got injured. Medvedev Zverev and Co. Is the worst generation in eons.

 

Djokovic will never win a peak for peak argument. What he did and does brilliantly is keeping himself fit and outlasting the others for which he deserves credit. He has won way more than the other 2 by playing "bad tennis" and isn't above gamesmanship to win (fake mtos, strategic grunting, excessive bouncing before big points especially , pointing to the wrong mark in 2013 wawrinka match which would have made Stan serve for the match etc. List is long. He did what he needed to and was able to stay at a solid B+ level for longer than either Nadal or Fed and benefitted more than either (2004-2006 or 2010 field that were criticized were way above any of the joke draws Djokovic had post 2017). Nadal and Federer in particular were just a bit better with their A+ games (absolute peak) on clay and grass/HC respectively; however they could not sustain that enough. Federer 2019 a year older than Novak now beat 5 years younger Nadal in 4 and had MPs vs 6 years Djokovic (and would likely have won if they hadn't changed Wimbledon 5th set rule). Djokovic a year younger than that is getting pounded by a guy who would have finished high school 3 years ago had he taken that up.

 

Oh come on give it a rest. Acknowledge greatness when you see it. Don't get embroiled in debates. Peak for peak is a useless argument. Federer during his peak lost to teenage Nadal and Nadal during his peak got pwned by Davydenko. Djokovic actually suffered less humiliating defeats among the three.

[AKane]

2 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

 

I don't know who said this - Courier or Agassi, but one of them had the opinion that Sampras was a cold blooded killer when serving. He has never lost serves at important moments like Federer. It was not just the quality of the serving but the instinct behind them.

Neither Courier nor Agassi had big serves like Sampras so he bullied them. When he met the big servers like Krajicek(WIm 1996), Safin(US Open 2000) and Federer(Wim 2001), he did lose his serve many times in fact straight sets losses to Krajicek and Safin.

 

Yeah he did beat that flake Safin again in US Open 2001 SF but then lost 76 61 61 to Lleyton Hewitt of all people. So yes he did drop his serve often at slams - maybe not to Becker, Agassi, Courier and Pioline types but to others.

Edited July 15, 2024 by AKane

[Real McCoy]

9 minutes ago, AKane said:

Neither Courier nor Agassi had big serves like Sampras so he bullied them. When he met the big servers like Krajicek(WIm 1996), Safin(US Open 2000) and Federer(Wim 2001), he did lose his serve many times in fact straight sets losses to Krajicek and Safin.

 

Yeah he did beat that flake Safin again in US Open 2001 SF but then lost 76 61 61 to Lleyton Hewitt of all people. So yes he did drop his serve often at slams - maybe not to Becker, Agassi, Courier and Pioline types but to others.

 

Maybe you don't realize that up until Sampras' time in the sun, tennis players retired at 30. So Sampras losing to Hewitt in his twilight years is not beyond the norm. Sampras faced other big servers too such as Becker, Ivanisevic, etc. Him losing to Krajicek in 96 wimbledon and to Safin in USO 2000 are the only things you have against Sampras. If you look up the records of Federer and the other two, you will find a lot of skeletons. Needless to say, Sampras' serve is better than that of the big 3 in that whenever he stepped out to serve, there was fear in his opponent.

[AKane]

34 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Maybe you don't realize that up until Sampras' time in the sun, tennis players retired at 30. So Sampras losing to Hewitt in his twilight years is not beyond the norm. Sampras faced other big servers too such as Becker, Ivanisevic, etc. Him losing to Krajicek in 96 wimbledon and to Safin in USO 2000 are the only things you have against Sampras. If you look up the records of Federer and the other two, you will find a lot of skeletons. Needless to say, Sampras' serve is better than that of the big 3 in that whenever he stepped out to serve, there was fear in his opponent.

That is your opinion - his own pigeon rival Agassi played until 2006 - age 36. 

 

Sampras after the defeats to Safin and Hewitt was lucky to play his pigeon again in 2002 US Open final.

 

With 14 slams he is considerably behind the Big 3 - deal with it.

[Real McCoy]

1 minute ago, AKane said:

That is your opinion - his own pigeon rival Agassi played until 2006 - age 36. 

 

Sampras after the defeats to Safin and Hewitt was lucky to play his pigeon again in 2002 US Open final.

 

With 14 slams he is considerably behind the Big 3 - deal with it.

 

lol Agassi playing that late was a new thing back then. Its clear you haven't watched any of those events. Even you won't accept Safin and Hewitt as equal to Sampras. Why are you bringing them back in the conversation other than your attempt to bring Sampras down.

[AKane]

4 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

He has never lost serves at important moments like Federer.

I have problems with statements like this.

 

"never lost serves at important moments?".I gave example of 3 times he got routined in 3 sets. He was also beaten by a 19 year old Roger Federer in 5 sets at Wimbledon playing serve/volley.

 

But for you all these are exceptions and defeats of Agassi, Courier, Pioline and Becker are sacrosanct. Different strokes for different folks.

[AKane]

45 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Its clear you haven't watched any of those events.

I have followed tennis on radio and tv since Borg/Nastase 1976 and Borg/Connors 1977. 

 

Its clear you are a Sampras fan - minus his 8 Wimbledons Fed has 12 other slams and minus his 7 Wimbledons Djokovic has 17 other slams. Deal with it. Sampras has total 14.

Edited July 15, 2024 by AKane

[Real McCoy]

2 minutes ago, AKane said:

I have problems with statements like this.

 

"never lost serves at important moments?".I gave example of 3 times he got routined in 3 sets. He was also beaten by a 19 year old Roger Federer in 5 sets at Wimbledon playing serve/volley.

 

But for you all these are exceptions and defeats of Agassi, Courier, Pioline and Becker are sacrosanct. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Did I say Sampras never lost serve? Stop nitpicking every little thing I said. From your posts, Sampras losing to Krajicek in 96, to Safin in 00 was earth shattering. I can pick apart big 3 the same way you did and that will be even more comprehensive

[AKane]

48 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

lol Agassi playing that late was a new thing back then.

Ivan Lendl  beat Boris Becker at USO( first win over Becker in GS) in 1992 at age 32 and retired in 1994 at age 34. I saw that match live.

 

Ivanisevic won Wimbledon in 2002 at age 31... 

 

52 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Its clear you haven't watched any of those events.

yeah - some clarity. Ha!

[Real McCoy]

5 minutes ago, AKane said:

I have followed tennis on radio and tv since Borg/Nastase 1976 and Borg/Connors 1977. 

 

Its clear you are a Sampras fan - minus his 8 Wimbledons Fed has 12 other slams and minus his 7 Wimbledons Djokovic has 17 other slams. Deal with it. Sampras has total 14.

 

You sound very agitated for an old time follower. I'm not a Sampras fan lol. You however seem to be a rabid Federer fan.

[Real McCoy]

1 minute ago, AKane said:

Ivan Lendl  beat Boris Becker at USO( first win over Becker in GS) in 1992 at age 32 and retired in 1994 at age 34. I saw that match live.

 

Ivanisevic won Wimbledon in 2002 at age 31... 

 

yeah - some clarity. Ha!

 

Ivanisevic won in 2001 Even that was viewed as a surprise. So was Sampras winning in USO 2002. Lendl was among the first to train real hard. Even he was not impressive in the 90s when he was over the hill (past 30). Its now crystal clear that you did not follow tennis at all back then. If you did, you would know that these things were a rarity

[AKane]

8 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Did I say Sampras never lost serve? Stop nitpicking every little thing I said. From your posts, Sampras losing to Krajicek in 96, to Safin in 00 was earth shattering. I can pick apart big 3 the same way you did and that will be even more comprehensive

Sampras 14, Federer 20, Nadal 22, Djokovic 24. 

 

Get over it, deal with it. 

 

Even Sampras will admit he is not in their league.