India's test XI of this millennium ( post 2000)

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, Majestic said:

There are 3 places in middle order for specialist batsman. Dravid, Kohli and VVS played far more impactful knocks than SRT post 2000.

No. There is no such thing as impactful knock in test cricket unless its literally 4th innings chase. 

Your made up qualifier criteria is easily dismissed as nonsense.

 

[Ultimate_Game]

45 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No. There is no such thing as impactful knock in test cricket unless its literally 4th innings chase. 

Your made up qualifier criteria is easily dismissed as nonsense.

 

 

There is. Sehwag's triple hundred against Pak where it killed them off. Or Head's 160+ in WTC final which killed the match. You can see these impactful knocks which decide the result of the Test.

[Muloghonto]

23 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

There is. Sehwag's triple hundred against Pak where it killed them off. Or Head's 160+ in WTC final which killed the match. You can see these impactful knocks which decide the result of the Test.

No. In tests, impactful knocks are only possible if the bowling carries the day. None of those scores would matter, if your bowlers don't take 20 wickets. Batsmen do not win test matches. bowlers do. The literal difference between this nonsense 'impactful knock' concept in tests and 'non impactful knock' is how well your bowlers did. 

That is why 220* in a draw is seen as less impact than 120 in a win.

 

[Prabhdeep Singh]

Small meaningful stat, Rohit has scored 12 test 100's all in wins.

[Prabhdeep Singh]

Most 100's in Test Wins for India:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif	50	0
SR Tendulkar	1990-2013	72	113	17	5946	248*	61.93	20	24	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Dravid	1996-2011	56	92	14	5131	270	65.78	15	23	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
V Kohli	2011-2024	59	96	8	4542	254*	51.61	13	16	7	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
CA Pujara	2010-2023	58	96	9	4408	206*	50.66	13	23	8	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
RG Sharma	2013-2024	34	55	7	2943	212	61.31	12	9	1	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
AM Rahane	2013-2023	44	73	8	3047	188	46.87	9	15	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
V Sehwag	2002-2013	42	68	4	3498	309	54.65	8	16	4	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
VVS Laxman	1996-2011	47	71	10	3410	281	55.90	7	23	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
M Vijay	2008-2018	33	55	0	2155	167	39.18	7	7	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SM Gavaskar	1971-1987	23	42	4	1671	166	43.97	6	7	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
M Azharuddin	1986-1999	22	32	3	1609	182	55.48	5	4	1	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MA Agarwal	2018-2022	14	23	0	1182	243	51.39	4	4	1	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin	2011-2024	59	70	6	1830	124	28.59	4	8	4	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
S Dhawan	2013-2018	15	23	0	1059	190	46.04	4	1	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MS Dhoni	2005-2014	36	51	9	2033	224	48.40	4	12	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
G Gambhir	2004-2016	25	41	3	1739	167	45.76	4	10	1	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
SC Ganguly	1996-2008	37	58	9	2284	136	46.61	4	14	5	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
KL Rahul	2015-2024	29	49	2	1667	199	35.46	4	8	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
NS Sidhu	1988-1998	13	18	1	1179	124	69.35	4	7	0	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
DB Vengsarkar	1976-1990	18	28	3	1187	166	47.48	4	4	2	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
GR Viswanath	1969-1981	20	37	4	1637	139	49.60	4	8	3	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif

 

Edited August 2, 2024 by Prabhdeep Singh

[Kron]

5 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

If you pick Shardul over Kumble even on a green-top WACA with cross-breeze ( allegedly THE BEST seaming & bouncing condition on the planet), you will still see lesser results than with picking kumble, provided you dont give Shardul the new ball. A mediocre pacer isnt a better option than an excellent spinner even on pacey conditions. 

Plus, the main consideration for picking a 3rd seamer, is their ability to bowl with the worst ball condition possible - after the shine has gone, but before its old enough to reverse. This is the hardest job for a pacer and typically, the only successful 3rd/4th pacers in international cricket are those who have good pace AND significant bounce - because movement is going to be non-existent for the ball that is older than 15 overs and younger than 50 overs. As the likes of Lee, Waqar, etc found out ( high pace, not high bounce pacers), if your ball isnt moving and it isnt bouncing, the faster you bowl, the faster it goes to the boundary. 

The three most successful 3rd/4th pacer i've ever seen are Garner, Walsh and Hazlewood - and they all have one thing in common: big bounce. 
Zaheer for eg, is a pretty good opening bowler and reverse swing bowler, but is that going to be his role in the lineup ? No. Why ? Because both Bumrah and Shami are better than Zaheer with the new ball and with reverse swing. 
So Zaheer gets stuck bowling in the shitty 15-50 over mark. And if you'd seen Zaheer, he was an absolute club-level bowler when the ball wasnt moving, because he is also a low bounce pacer. Not that its a necessarily big drag on Zaheer- lots of excellent pace bowlers suck at this period due to not being a high bounce bowler, like Lee, Waqar, Starc, Johnson, Anderson, etc. 

 

So when i pick the bowlers for this lineup, i look at it this way: 

Overs 0-15 : Bumrah+Shami

Overs 16-50: ???????

Overs 50-80: Bumrah+Shami+spinners

 

So who are the bowlers who can handle the 16-50 overs region best ? Answer is from the group that consists of Ashwin,Jadeja, Kumble & Bhajji. 

All 4 of them are categorically better than the available options of Ishant,Zaheer, Siraj, etc. in THIS period of the game. So its Ashwin,Jadeja & Kumble for me. 

 

 

You can have zak and bomb open

 

Then shami as 3rd seamer. 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

29 minutes ago, Kron said:

You can have zak and bomb open

 

Then shami as 3rd seamer. 

 

 

He isnt a high bounce bowler suited for the role of a 3rd seamer either. Only Bumrah is.But he is miles ahead of anyone else as opening bowler, so he can't be shunted to #3. 

The only Indian pacer of the era mentioned who's in contention for #3 seamer role is Ishant. And i dont believe he is a better #3 pacer than Kumble is as #3 bowler. 

 

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

He isnt a high bounce bowler suited for the role of a 3rd seamer either. Only Bumrah is.But he is miles ahead of anyone else as opening bowler, so he can't be shunted to #3. 

The only Indian pacer of the era mentioned who's in contention for #3 seamer role is Ishant. And i dont believe he is a better #3 pacer than Kumble is as #3 bowler. 

 

Both are better than kumble in seaming conditions. 

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, Kron said:

Both are better than kumble in seaming conditions. 

not as 3rd pacer they are not. Both have abysmal record in seaming conditions when coming in as 3rd pacer. 

Conditions dont override quality concern when you are trying to compare a ferarri with a lada. 

 

[Majestic]

18 minutes ago, Kron said:

Both are better than kumble in seaming conditions. 

Ishant Sharma is a trundler.

[Kron]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

not as 3rd pacer they are not. Both have abysmal record in seaming conditions when coming in as 3rd pacer. 

Conditions dont override quality concern when you are trying to compare a ferarri with a lada. 

 

Nha ishant is pretty economical

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Kron said:

Nha ishant is pretty economical

 

Economical isnt very useful in tests unless you take wickets or can literally be like Bapu Nadkarni and have 1.6 economy rate. 

Even if you keep it tight in the 15-50 over mark and don't take wickets, suddenly you are staring at 160/2 and its not looking good. 

The issue is wicket-taking. And in the 15-50 over mark, Kumble is a better wicket taker, in practically all conditions than pretty much all the Indian pacers since 2000 not named Bumrah.

 

[Kron]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Economical isnt very useful in tests unless you take wickets or can literally be like Bapu Nadkarni and have 1.6 economy rate. 

Even if you keep it tight in the 15-50 over mark and don't take wickets, suddenly you are staring at 160/2 and its not looking good. 

The issue is wicket-taking. And in the 15-50 over mark, Kumble is a better wicket taker, in practically all conditions than pretty much all the Indian pacers since 2000 not named Bumrah.

 

Ishant of 2015 to 2020 did a good job though. On seaming wickets 3 spinners will be overkill tbh

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Ishant Sharma is a trundler.

No he wasn’t. At his best he was quick. Faster than most of Pakistanis phasst bowlers 

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Kron said:

Ishant of 2015 to 2020 did a good job though. On seaming wickets 3 spinners will be overkill tbh

Ishant of 2015-2020 was not a 3rd seamer very often and when he was, he was very crap. 

As i said, 3 spinners on seaming wickets are 100% better deal when your 3 spinners are Anil Kumble or Shane Warne and the pacers to take their spot are pace bowlers who average 50 in test cricket in the middle overs.

 

[Kron]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Ishant of 2015-2020 was not a 3rd seamer very often and when he was, he was very crap. 

As i said, 3 spinners on seaming wickets are 100% better deal when your 3 spinners are Anil Kumble or Shane Warne and the pacers to take their spot are pace bowlers who average 50 in test cricket in the middle overs.

 

I dont think so

 

Pacers always do better on seaming tracks. Ishant was deadly vs aus in 2018 and SA etc

Edited August 3, 2024 by Kron

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, Kron said:

I dont think so

 

Pacers always do better on seaming tracks. Ishant was deadly vs aus in 2018 and SA etc

Ishant did well...as opening bowler. not as 3rd seamer. 

That is the point you are missing. You cannot take an opening bowler and use him as 3rd pacer anymore than you can get a spinner to open the bowling everywhere.

 

[Kron]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Ishant did well...as opening bowler. not as 3rd seamer. 

That is the point you are missing. You cannot take an opening bowler and use him as 3rd pacer anymore than you can get a spinner to open the bowling everywhere.

 

Bymrah and bhuvi

And bumrah and shami opened though

Edited August 3, 2024 by Kron

[putrevus]

I still see Sachin fans going all out to  paint Sachin in to some great batsman who was victimized by lack of bowling.

 

Steady Eddies play for their stats nothing else. 
 

These two tests both against SA show how Sachin’s stats rarely helped his team.

 

first one is where he got his record 50 test 100 in 2010 in SA 

 

our genius goes missing in first innings but when match is gone completely out of hand and loss was a formality he scores 111 .

Second  Nagpur test in 2010

 

Our genius was again a no show in first innings where Sehwag needed some help to fight against Steyn.

 

But promptly shows up in second innings to get his 100 when match was gone.

 

 

On paper our  genius got two 100s but none of them were any good to the team.

 

 His career of 200 tests is full of matches like these.

 

When you play 200 tests you are bound to  score runs in some wins.

Edited August 3, 2024 by putrevus

[Kron]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

I still see Sachin fans going all out to  paint Sachin in to some great batsman who was victimized by lack of bowling.

 

Steady Eddies play for their stats nothing else. 
 

These two tests both against SA show how Sachin’s stats rarely helped his team.

 

first one is where he got his record 50 test 100 in 2010 in SA 

 

our genius goes missing in first innings but when match is gone completely out of hand and loss was a formality he scores 111 .

Second  Nagpur test in 2010

 

Our genius was again a no show in first innings where Sehwag needed some help to fight against Steyn.

 

But promptly shows up in second innings to get his 100 when match was gone.

 

 

On paper our  genius got two 100s but none of them were any good to the team.

 

 His career of 200 tests is full of matches like these.

 

When you play 200 tests you are bound to  score runs in some wins.

I agree Sachin fans are annoying. But tbf kohli himself dint perform well in tests in sena games for a series defining knock. In t20 sure yes he did. But tests no.