Curious case of Waqar's career - avg 18 in first 32 tests and avg 28 in next 55

[First class]

We're talking about Waqar and some of you guys dragging in  Bumrah; for no reason . Waqar and Bumrah belong to a different era and usually we don't talk an ATG about a  cricketer until his career is finished. Bumrah is going through a purple patch and hopefully this will continue for years to come and if he remained fit and in form , he has a very good chance of ending up as an ATG bowler but his status at this point is not that of Waqar, Styne , Marshall and others, he has a long way to go. 

 

I understand , India never had any ATG fast bowler and Bumrah has got everyone excited and that's great for cricket in general, not just for Indians, but making him an ATG at this point is a stretch , take it easy guys. 

[Muloghonto]

56 minutes ago, First class said:

Now don;t give me that B-- " quality of batsmen" . We all know quality of batters in Waqar era was way more better than the current era . The quality of batters in those days like Lara, Kallis, Gooch, Gower, Pontings , Hayden, we don;t see in Bumrah's era.

 

 

 

 

 

True that waqar's era also had a lot better batsmen but at the same time, taking a high % of top order wickets *IS* the mark of the elite of the elite, something Bumrah does for his era exceedingly well, while Waqar himself was nowhere close to being the exponent in his own era, far behind Ambrose, Donald, McGrath, etc in % of top order wickets taken.

The fact that Waqar's stats in his peak are padded a lot by early 90s Nz, which is basically a fading Martin Crowe + nobodies and a bottomfeeder team for batting depth and also against Sri Lanka and distinctly had ordinary time vs Aussies, Indians, etc. cannot be overlooked vs Bumrah, who is definitely a step above in terms of quality of wickets, aka top order wickets, which is vastly superior % than Waqars and is in the elite convo with the Ambrose-McGrath-Marshall of the world for the top tier atg for fast bowlers and a cut slightly above the other ATGs.

 

Just about the only thing Bumrah is lacking is quantity of wickets and even so, he is more than likely to make it to at least 300 and put himself in the true ATG contention category if he can keep his average to 21 or below, especially given that it would still be a crazy average for a fast bowler bowling 50% or so of his career on fast bowler's hell of subcontinent turners and flatties.

And he is more than likley to get there given that he is already at 200 with an average of below 20..He can afford to go at 23-24 for next 100 and still get a 21+ average and be in talk for stats ATG as well.

 

[raki05]

1 hour ago, First class said:

Now don;t give me that B-- " quality of batsmen" . We all know quality of batters in Waqar era was way more better than the current era . The quality of batters in those days like Lara, Kallis, Gooch, Gower, Pontings , Hayden, we don;t see in Bumrah's era.

 

 

 

 

And what did waqar do against them shat in pants may be oyher than against lara. He was only good against old sanile fat eng/nz batter. His avg against aus, sa and ind is beyond pathetic. He bullied minnows or old sanile batters.

[First class]

25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

True that waqar's era also had a lot better batsmen but at the same time, taking a high % of top order wickets *IS* the mark of the elite of the elite, something Bumrah does for his era exceedingly well, while Waqar himself was nowhere close to being the exponent in his own era, far behind Ambrose, Donald, McGrath, etc in % of top order wickets taken.

The fact that Waqar's stats in his peak are padded a lot by early 90s Nz, which is basically a fading Martin Crowe + nobodies and a bottomfeeder team for batting depth and also against Sri Lanka and distinctly had ordinary time vs Aussies, Indians, etc. cannot be overlooked vs Bumrah, who is definitely a step above in terms of quality of wickets, aka top order wickets, which is vastly superior % than Waqars and is in the elite convo with the Ambrose-McGrath-Marshall of the world for the top tier atg for fast bowlers and a cut slightly above the other ATGs.

 

Just about the only thing Bumrah is lacking is quantity of wickets and even so, he is more than likely to make it to at least 300 and put himself in the true ATG contention category if he can keep his average to 21 or below, especially given that it would still be a crazy average for a fast bowler bowling 50% or so of his career on fast bowler's hell of subcontinent turners and flatties.

And he is more than likley to get there given that he is already at 200 with an average of below 20..He can afford to go at 23-24 for next 100 and still get a 21+ average and be in talk for stats ATG as well.

 

Lets wait for Bumrah's career to finish and hope he remains fit and in form for next 4-5 years , then we will and should talk about anything like ATG, and he has a good chance of becoming one . Your biased against Waqar, ( or opinion ) is understandable . 

[raki05]

1 hour ago, First class said:

We're talking about Waqar and some of you guys dragging in  Bumrah; for no reason . Waqar and Bumrah belong to a different era and usually we don't talk an ATG about a  cricketer until his career is finished. Bumrah is going through a purple patch and hopefully this will continue for years to come and if he remained fit and in form , he has a very good chance of ending up as an ATG bowler but his status at this point is not that of Waqar, Styne , Marshall and others, he has a long way to go. 

 

I understand , India never had any ATG fast bowler and Bumrah has got everyone excited and that's great for cricket in general, not just for Indians, but making him an ATG at this point is a stretch , take it easy guys. 

Lol waqar was never in the same league of marshal or steyn. I understand Pakistani never had bowler who took 200 wkt since bottle cap or home umpire days. So it may irk out burn and jealousy. Lets this get straight none of the Pakistani bowlers since your history are in same league of bumrah lets leave marshal or steyn.

Edited January 13, 2025 by raki05

[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, MechEng said:

 

If we strictly consider pre back injury Waqar, there weren't many great batting lineups around then. India and Australia were in transition phase, South Africa just came back after apartheid, NZ was OK while West Indies and England had 'big names' without necessarily having a strong batting lineup.

 

Waqar's numbers were pretty good against both England and West Indies but it would be hard to predict if he had done well against ATG Aus lineup had he not suffered the stress fracture. Flintoff copied Waqar and got the ball to do things in Ashes 05, so we may never know... 

 

The reason why I think peak Waqar might be better is because he was a force of nature. Man made strategies or tech will always fail against nature's wrath, that's the best analogy I can come up with. Bumrah at his peak is unplayable but may not give the same kind of anxiety as peak Waqar did.

 

Again, I can be wrong with the above, just my observations.

Peak waqar used bottlecaps too.

[rkt.india]

14 hours ago, mani sha said:

Waquar was a faster version of Unmesh yadav at his peak . Skiddy but could swing well 

lacknof bounce was the reason he was never good on Aussie pitches . 
 

Post injury , he had dropped in pace from 150s to 135 plus . V respectable but at best a support bowler to Wasim . 
 

He was never in bumrah class even at his peak. 

Not really. Both bowled similar pace.

[rkt.india]

18 hours ago, the don said:

Lol sir. Look at him touching 90 mph and consistely bowling 87-88 mph even tho he had lost all his pace. Compare that to the speeds of current bowlers.

 

Here we are talking about test cricket. One day me to Vinay Kumar ne bhi 145 daali hai Australia me.

[the don]

12 hours ago, First class said:

Usain Bolt about Waqar Younis , 

Take a moment and watch this , if you still doubt about Waqar's greatness.

 

 

The king has spoken.

waqar was pretty highly rated by the westindians. They love pace bowling

[the don]

How much did Waqar even play against India in tests? By the time the 99 series came around Shoaib was a better, faster bowler which is why i dont think he is in the Wasim wala ATG bracket. Part of the reason why a lot of casual pak fans dont rate Tendulkar that highly is they remember he averaged around 40 on the same pitches and his best innings was in a losing cause .Younis khan averaged  over 100 on. Even afridi averaged over 50.

Waqar is rated adequately by the Aussies and very very highly by Pak’s real test rival at the time the English. 

Edited January 13, 2025 by the don

[the don]

39 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Here we are talking about test cricket. One day me to Vinay Kumar ne bhi 145 daali hai Australia me.

Waqar clocked over 90 mph on the speed gun in the 96 series in england. Vinay kuma test main nahi ker sakta chahay uski dou readings add kerlo.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, the don said:

How much did Waqar even play against India in tests? By the time the 99 series came around Shoaib was a better, faster bowler which is why i dont think he is in the Wasim wala ATG bracket. Part of the reason why a lot of casual pak fans dont rate Tendulkar that highly is they remember he averaged around 40 on the same pitches and his best innings was in a losing cause .Younis khan averaged  over 100 on. Even afridi averaged over 50.

Waqar is rated adequately by the Aussies and very very highly by Pak’s real test rival at the time the English. 

Sachin played vs Pak in his debut series of 89.

 

After that he straight away played in 2004 and 06 and anyone who know cricket will understand 2004-06 was his weakest period due to tennis elbow injury and he can't play many of his shots. Yet he was able to achieve an avg of 40 which is similar to bowling avg of 30.

 

At the same time Australian media has always regarded Sachin as the best after Bradman. Its well known fact that Australia has been the biggest rival for India since 2001 Test series.

 

Waqar simply choked against India & Australia...and avg of 70 & 40 respectively is unacceptable if we are debating him for an ATG.

At max a James Anderson level bowler, good but not great.

Edited January 13, 2025 by singhvivek141

[MechEng]

10 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Sachin played vs Pak in his debut series of 89.

 

After that he straight away played in 2004 and 06 and anyone who know cricket will understand 2004-06 was his weakest period due to tennis elbow injury and he can't play many of his shots. Yet he was able to achieve an avg of 40 which is similar to bowling avg of 30.

 

At the same time Australian media has always regarded Sachin as the best after Bradman. Its well known fact that Australia has been the biggest rival for India since 2001 Test series.

 

Waqar simply choked against India & Australia...and avg of 70 & 40 respectively is unacceptable no matter what way folks try to spin.

 

All great bowlers have a bogie team at least.

 

Waqar played very few tests against India  so not a big sample size here. He struggled against Aus for sure but was pretty good against other sides. 

 

He was a tail basher, but that is not really a bad thing. Especially in our case when we have been historically guilty of letting tail bat long and bring opposition back in the game after dismissing their top line batsmen cheaply.

[singhvivek141]

8 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

All great bowlers have a bogie team at least.

 

Waqar played very few tests against India  so not a big sample size here. He struggled against Aus for sure but was pretty good against other sides. 

 

He was a tail basher, but that is not really a bad thing. Especially in our case when we have been historically guilty of letting tail bat long and bring opposition back in the game after dismissing their top line batsmen cheaply.

One bogie team is understandable, not two.

Like I said, Waqar can be a Pak great, no question about it. He did a great service for them. But calling him an ATG is questionable.

[the don]

55 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Sachin played vs Pak in his debut series of 89.

 

After that he straight away played in 2004 and 06 and anyone who know cricket will understand 2004-06 was his weakest period due to tennis elbow injury and he can't play many of his shots. Yet he was able to achieve an avg of 40 which is similar to bowling avg of 30.

 

At the same time Australian media has always regarded Sachin as the best after Bradman. Its well known fact that Australia has been the biggest rival for India since 2001 Test series.

 

Waqar simply choked against India & Australia...and avg of 70 & 40 respectively is unacceptable if we are debating him for an ATG.

At max a James Anderson level bowler, good but not great.

Sachin played the 99 series and the asian test championship match. Sachin’s peak was the 90s and australia and india were no rivals back then infact it was David vs Goliath.

Edited January 13, 2025 by the don

[New guy]

25 minutes ago, the don said:

Sachin played the 99 series and the asian test championship match. Sachin’s peak was the 90s and australia and india were no rivals back then infact it was David vs Goliath.

There were two matches in the 99 series and Sachin scored a 100 in one of them.

 

Asian test championship was I believe when Sachin has that famous first ball duck of Shoaib, Sachin had a habit of getting out to new bowlers. 

 

Still very low sample size here. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, the don said:

Sachin played the 99 series and the asian test championship match. Sachin’s peak was the 90s and australia and india were no rivals back then infact it was David vs Goliath.

I used the filter of "in Pakistan" coz you mentioned avg of 40. Also that parameter holds in modern era as well coz there is always a ? mark on the home performances with an excuse of familiar conditions.

 

Sachin had several peaks...from 2007-11 also Sachin hit his peak.

2004 (second half) to 2006 & then 2012-13 were his real formidable years where he went down the slump. 

[First class]

7 hours ago, raki05 said:

Lol waqar was never in the same league of marshal or steyn. I understand Pakistani never had bowler who took 200 wkt since bottle cap or home umpire days. So it may irk out burn and jealousy. Lets this get straight none of the Pakistani bowlers since your history are in same league of bumrah lets leave marshal or steyn.

I marked you as the low level poster, there are not many here , but you made the list, still talking non-sense. 

[First class]

What's Bumrah's average against New Zealand ? 

[Muloghonto]

8 hours ago, First class said:

Lets wait for Bumrah's career to finish and hope he remains fit and in form for next 4-5 years , then we will and should talk about anything like ATG, and he has a good chance of becoming one . Your biased against Waqar, ( or opinion ) is understandable . 

Facts aren't bias. 

Fact is even at his peak Waqar was a stats padder  against minnows.