Operation sindoor

[ravishingravi]

There is a clear change in tone. Think we will go for it guys. 

Edited October 3, 2025 by ravishingravi

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

If baloch and pathans can do it then so can POJK people...Some sources saying police has surrendered or revolted. Let's see how true that is.

PoJK is heavily militarised area... Any armed protest will be crushed brutally.  There is proper media blackout in the region.  The demographics of GB have shifted significantly as well coz State Subject rule (like art 35a of JK) has been abolished years before.

 

Their demands are totally different from say Balochistan or KPK.

[Lone Wolf]

43 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

There is a clear change in tone. Think we will go for it guys. 

Age old conundrum for Indian establishment.  Basically we got no leverage without sacrificing significant economic slowdown that comes with it.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[ravishingravi]

28 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Age old conundrum for Indian establishment.  Basically we got no leverage without sacrificing significant economic slowdown that comes with it.

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Age old conundrum for Indian establishment.  Basically we got no leverage without sacrificing significant economic slowdown that comes with it.

 

 

 

 

[ravishingravi]

Al Jazeera 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Age old conundrum for Indian establishment.  Basically we got no leverage without sacrificing significant economic slowdown that comes with it.

 

 

Economic growth doesnt mean we should compromise on our security. 

Both things go hand in hand, if you buy a luxury car you need to pay for the best possible insurance. 

 

Economy can improve in years. Security impact cant be fulfilled even in decades. Indian govt need to understand that.

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Economic growth doesnt mean we should compromise on our security. 

Both things go hand in hand, if you buy a luxury car you need to pay for the best possible insurance. 

 

Economy can improve in years. Security impact cant be fulfilled even in decades. Indian govt need to understand that.

 

 

That's why it is important to understand the enemy's threshold and red lines and subsequently when will the bigger powers say f**k it let's show them their place.  

 

Can we afford to show our teeth that soon when we are in no position to absorb the fallout?   Deng Xiaoping's philosophy works for India too just as well it did for China.

 

India needs to rapidly modernise it's military upto modern standards first along with growing its economy to withstand such shocks.  Even our military is dependent on foreign imports a lot to make an impact.  We only hear about engines coz that's the big bang level dependency.

 

Pakistan is a suicidal country with no future whatsoever and a useful pawn for India's enemy states.

It is extremely vital to look at the larger picture.

Fix your goals and find a window when to deal with Pakistan on our terms.

Edited October 4, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[ravishingravi]

 

[G_B_]

4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

That's why it is important to understand the enemy's threshold and red lines and subsequently when will the bigger powers say f**k it let's show them their place.  

 

Can we afford to show our teeth that soon when we are in no position to absorb the fallout?   Deng Xiaoping's philosophy works for India too just as well it did for China.

 

India needs to rapidly modernise it's military upto modern standards first along with growing its economy to withstand such shocks.  Even our military is dependent on foreign imports a lot to make an impact.  We only hear about engines coz that's the big bang level dependency.

 

Pakistan is a suicidal country with no future whatsoever and a useful pawn for India's enemy states.

It is extremely vital to look at the larger picture.

Fix your goals and find a window when to deal with Pakistan on our terms.

 

I think engines are just one element which is heavily scrutinised.

 

Its the lack of desicion making which is key issue.

 

India should have signed a deal to integrate the r37m missile with mig29 and su30mki by now. Russia was offering local production. This was a chance to also boost development of our own astra. Cheap easy and effective.

 

See I dont buy this modern military bs. 95% of pak pop is within 300km of border. Pakistan has a huge geographic disparity with india. India should have had about a 1000+ 300km range pinakas by now. All 100% local. You can literally smother pak with guided rocket artillary. So you just need a few elements to counter pak. 

 

 

[Gollum]

There won't be any full scale war with Pakistan, our generals, govts, even people lack the stomach for a prolonged conflict.

 

Every 5-6 years, we will see skirmishes, Sindoor was an improvement over what we did post Pulwama. We will have a window of a week or so to cause maximum damage to PakMil during these skirmishes, we failed to press home the advantage this time, next time we should do better. 

[Lone Wolf]

3 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

India should have signed a deal to integrate the r37m missile with mig29 and su30mki by now. Russia was offering local production. This was a chance to also boost development of our own astra. Cheap easy and effective.

 

Rather spending money on R37M... Invest in Astra Mk3 on war footing.  Get it before 2029-30 and India outmatches Pakistan in BVR and no dependency on anyone else and obviously make them in significant numbers.  This is what China does.  Nothing but lack of funding and dedication stops this from happening and obviously corrupt import Chandigarh lobby in PMO and MoD.

 

Local co production is costly affair just like Brahmos is.  R37M will have exclusive Russian involvement anyways.

 

Even our Howitzers ammunition is imported.  M777, K9 Vajra are all heavily imported systems.  We are so screwed if West interrupts the supply chain.   Even Tejas is only naam ka indigenous.

 

I agree with Pinaka's range should be increased. Even Unguided Pinakas should be minimum 200km range.

Current 80-90 km systems are not enough for mass casualty barrage.

[Lone Wolf]

11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

There won't be any full scale war with Pakistan, our generals, govts, even people lack the stomach for a prolonged conflict.

 

Every 5-6 years, we will see skirmishes, Sindoor was an improvement over what we did post Pulwama. We will have a window of a week or so to cause maximum damage to PakMil during these skirmishes, we failed to press home the advantage this time, next time we should do better. 

West clearly wants Pakistan to be our Ukraine 

They have the manpower to keep us entangled for a long while. 

We should not fall for these theatrics and be measured and calculative with our response.

 

In case of a skirmish we should always target high value targets that pushes them back.  Naval assets, shipyards and missile depos, Jf17 production sites.

 

[G_B_]

This is what India needs vs Pakistan in military terms (non-nuclear)

 

(a) Pinaka IV 300km with 12 rockets, 100% local content. Have 1000+ of these.

 

(b) Brahmos mk2 with 1000km range integrated onto Su30mki "super sukhoi" platform alongside astra and the R37m missile. The idea is that these jets dont have to leave indian air space. Lets have a 60-70 strike force based in Madhya Pradesh running sorties nonstop. This should be your aerial artillery.

 

(c) Multi-layer air defences

 

(d) Pralay and Nirbhay were inducted in large numbers. 100% local.

 

(e) Mig 29 integrated with astra R37m missiles. These should be inducted in numbers with a philosophy of use and throw away in wars/skirmishes.

 

Instead, we are thinking of spending gangbusters on a Rafale where the French delay and complain 24/7 about Meteor missiles.....It would be nice to have a 100+ Rafale strike force. But its not 100% needed.

 

The key point. You dont need a modernised miltiary for Pakistan. Whatever that means. It harks back to the 42 Squadron theory. The world has moved on from military jets and tanks. The su30mki was once a nuclear option for India. It is no longer and this should now fall to the S5 class of submarine.

[Lone Wolf]

Awesome stuff by Aroor and Vishnu Som.  Vishnu is clearly among top shelf defense journalist in the country for last 7-8 years now.  

IAF clearly has dug a hole for itself and there are no  short term fixes for it anymore @singhvivek141 it's a good watch bro

 

 

Edited October 4, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[G_B_]

Blunt truth Iaf is probably the least competant of three forces. They face the paf the most competant of the three pak forces.

 

Gap widest in navy which we never seem to use.

[ravishingravi]

Interesting that army chief and defence minister used the same word. "Bhugol". Geography. Both said geography will be altered. 

[ravishingravi]

 

[ravishingravi]

31 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Blunt truth Iaf is probably the least competant of three forces. They face the paf the most competant of the three pak forces.

 

Gap widest in navy which we never seem to use.

 

Karachi is just sitting duck. It's amazing how we have again landed here. As if on cue.  

Edited October 4, 2025 by ravishingravi

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Awesome stuff by Aroor and Vishnu Som.  Vishnu is clearly among top shelf defense journalist in the country for last 7-8 years now.  

IAF clearly has dug a hole for itself and there are no  short term fixes for it anymore @singhvivek141 it's a good watch bro

 

 

Saw it bro.

Tbh, it repeats the old rhetoric. We know that Su-57 is a semi-stealth and with it's current AL41 engine, it's just an improvement over Su30.
If Kinzal missile is indeed incorporated, Su-57 will become competent enough even with AL41 against J-35. With AL-51 it's gonna be a leap ahead.

I'm somewhat frustrated and irritated with the laziness of IAF as well. They shouldn't have agreed to detach from Su-57 program but rather should have stayed and pushed Russia. If Russia can make the improvements post 2018 in the current version of Su57, they could have done more had we stayed with the program.

Russia is currently in Ukraine war, yet it's industries are producing older Soviet jets like Su-34, Su-35, Mig-31 etc in larger numbers and parallely even working on Su-57 and potentially on Su-75 as well. What they need is workforce. However, here we are, just dozing off and HAL is shamelessly telling that they will produce 8 jets in a year. A country with a massive workforce like India it should ideally be producing 2-3 squadrons per year on the war footing (atleast for the jets whose design is finalized and passed by the IAF).

[G_B_]

Listened to the Podcast with Vishnu and Shiv

 

Once again, I believe this is a flawed analysis that overlooks the broader context. Yes the IAF has messed up badly. But it's not near as bad as people thing it is.

 

Pakistan will get at max around 50-60 J20. They are going to be expensive to operate as compared to the other birds they have. Which means they cannot be inducted at a mass scale as the Jf17.

 

I feel India needs to heavily invest in radars. Invest in Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle like Ghatak with a combat radius of up to 1000km and invest in the kaveri to power these. Its a much lower barrier to power and be stealthy in a USAV. Let us leverage that.

 

Its reminds me of a cricket analogy. In the 00s India was heavily batting heavy with a weak bowling. Now we bat into number 8 at home and play all rounders to cirvumvant the dip in batting quality post the fab 4. India's lack of planning for a 5th gen fighter needs to be acknowledged. But then programs like kaveri and ghatak needs to be aggreseively funded to compensate. I don't see what the Su57 adds to India. It seems like a panic buy.