Saudi and Pak sign NATO like mutual defense agreement

[singhvivek141]

29 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Don't see it happening too soon unfortunately.  Submarine push is coming though... After a decade of deep sleep.  Navy has had enough of MoD and Babus and they had to make so much noise for it to happen.   Time toh lagega still as it is a long process.  Between 2029-2033 timeframe Pakistan will have qualitative edge over us in Submarine domain ( their 11 AIP powered Subs would be roaming in Arabian seas).  That cannot be stopped.   Beyond that we will be in better shape.   First Nuclear attack Submarine (SSN) hopefully will be commissioned in 2036.  

 

That's why we are forced to go for additional P8I aircraft from US and they are charging us premium amount for that.

 

Without Kaveri engine on Tejas everything else is a pipe dream.  I read yesterday that 75 KN thrust is about to be achieved... 2-3 billion dollars further and in 4-5 years we can make it a reality. 

IAF's issues are deep and there are no shortcuts.

 

Focus should be MBRL and missile inventory at least.   Control the controllabels.  Hypersonic Cruise Missiles need to be fastracked.

 

Brahmos NG, Astra Mk3 (Gandiva) are much needed for Air force.

Astra Mk1 still has some software related issues.   It is basically irrelevant in modern day BVR combat coz of its limited range but its improvement is necessary for MK2 and Mk3 Variants .  BVR capability is biggest issue facing IAF.

Submarine wise we have SSBN's, so we can easily contain Pak Naval to it's shores if push comes to shove. AIPs are inferior to SSBN's in deep waters, so we have an edge there. Our third SSBN is also around the corner.
Then our Ballistic missiles can launched from the Standoff distances to their ports. It may not be as precise as Cruise missiles but can cause severe damage to their military equipments. 
Good thing is Navy is pushing for Pvt players hard. Unlike Airforce, they're quite engaged in their expansion programs, hence, the process of upgradation never stopped. We're upgrading the older Kalvari class submarines with AIP and by 2026 they'll be active. So that will give us some time, before the next-gen AIP Submarines sees the day. SSN's too hopefully join us by 2030's giving us Cruise Missile capabilities in Nuclear Submarines.

Brahmos NG, well, we need to see when it will be ready. It's not a BVR but a precision guided missile, so it will potentially weaponize Rafale's and Tejas. Current version of Brahmos can only fit in Sukhoi's. I think we shouldn't have stopped the Su-30 MKI program and have continued to expand the numbers in parallel to Super Sukhoi project. We should have continued upgrading our best fighter jet till we get the next leader of the attack, it's not like Russia was going to pull the plug anytime soon.

Anyway, Astra 1 and Astra 2 have limited ranges (110-150), it's the Astra-3 will probably be a gamechanger, it will give us Meteor like capability which is missing from Rafale's with a BVR of 300kms, Combine it with our excellent (and hopefully improving AD), our Airforce should be able to keep PAF in check.

[rangeelaraja]

Whether this is Saudi’s independent decision or done at the behest of a 3rd power - it again is a “price “ we are having to pay or a price that is being imposed on us for buying Russian oil. 
 

So we have indeed being paying a big price for this. 
 

But if Russia ( USSR ) wasn’t behind us - we would still have an East Pakistan near our north east. So India did owe a big one to Russia.  
 

Russians have a long memory - they will always be a very powerful country - given

their massive land mass and dozens of trillions of dollars worth natural resources 
 

Hope we too sign a pact with Russia that guarantees as much ammo and equipment as we need in time of a major conflict and some sort of an intelligence sharing covert pact against China —- Russia too doesn’t trust China, friendship with China is a big majboori for them. 
 

 

[singhvivek141]

10 minutes ago, pkmmamks said:

70 saal unhone kuch nahi kiya. suna hai ?

Freebies to sab govt de rahe hain

Blunders ki baat karenge to raat ho jayegi. 
Abhi Social Media ka time hai, to present govt ki harkaton pe baat karne k liye masala bahut hai. But agar past me ap jaoge to khud sharm aa jayegi ki ham aisi party ko 70 saal tak support kar rahe they.

PVNR was the last great leader Congress had, Shastriji was capable but couldn't get much time, Indira Gandhi started with a bang but then became a burden post emergency, ManMohan was a rubber stamp, Rajiv Gandhi was no better than Rahul and his blunders are well known. Sonia Yug ki to baat karni hi bekar hai.

Freebies ki shuruat kisne kari ? Public to apna pehle dekhengi, Hyderabad me RTC, Metro and Local trains loss me ja rahi hai kyunki women ko RTC me free me travel diya gya hai. L&T ab metro project se exit lena chahta hai due to losses, kaun responsible hai iske liye ? Aur kyu koi pvt player ab aaega market me due to these hits. 

[mishra]

From dawn

Quote

“to develop aspects of defence cooperation between the two countries and strengthen joint deterrence against any aggression.”

While i still standby with my earlier post, I think Pakistan nukes are doing the talking there. Is it geared towards Iran or Israel is key question. If its geared towards Iran, than Israel dont have to react in intermediate period, But if its geared towards the (reaction to Qatar) Israelis, than Pakistani nukes become a threat to Israel's existence since yesterday.

[Lone Wolf]

23 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Submarine wise we have SSBN's, so we can easily contain Pak Naval to it's shores if push comes to shove. AIPs are inferior to SSBN's in deep waters, so we have an edge there. Our third SSBN is also around the corner.
Then our Ballistic missiles can launched from the Standoff distances to their ports. It may not be as precise as Cruise missiles but can cause severe damage to their military equipments. 
Good thing is Navy is pushing for Pvt players hard. Unlike Airforce, they're quite engaged in their expansion programs, hence, the process of upgradation never stopped. We're upgrading the older Kalvari class submarines with AIP and by 2026 they'll be active. So that will give us some time, before the next-gen AIP Submarines sees the day. SSN's too hopefully join us by 2030's giving us Cruise Missile capabilities in Nuclear Submarines.

Brahmos NG, well, we need to see when it will be ready. It's not a BVR but a precision guided missile, so it will potentially weaponize Rafale's and Tejas. Current version of Brahmos can only fit in Sukhoi's. I think we shouldn't have stopped the Su-30 MKI program and have continued to expand the numbers in parallel to Super Sukhoi project. We should have continued upgrading our best fighter jet till we get the next leader of the attack, it's not like Russia was going to pull the plug anytime soon.

Anyway, Astra 1 and Astra 2 have limited ranges (110-150), it's the Astra-3 will probably be a gamechanger, it will give us Meteor like capability which is missing from Rafale's with a BVR of 300kms, Combine it with our excellent (and hopefully improving AD), our Airforce should be able to keep PAF in check.

Astra Mk3 operational timeline is early 2030's as of now if everything goes well.  

Desperately needs Mk 2 to at least match PL 15 in next 2-3 years.  Meteors are expensive and would be limited anyways when they come.

 

I read that PAF almost had to expend a third of their PL 15 inventory in operation Sindoor.  That's what happens with shoot and pray tactics.  Bhikharis would get new batch of them soon likely.

 

Brahmos is so heavy that only 1 can be carried by MKI at a time.

 

Brahmos NG will have lesser payload but maybe 2 can be carried easily.

 

Stopping MKI program in 2017 should be a sackable offense to entire MoD.  How retarded can one be really?

 

All depend on DRDO's AIP fuel cell readiness.

INS Kalvari missed the bus..

Now 2026 INS Khanderi is the target.

https://idrw.org/indias-scorpene-submarines-miss-aip-integration-delaying-enhanced-endurance-and-stealth-capabilities/

 

SSBN's roles is mainly detterance related.  Second strike capabilities are also crucial.

 

AIP ones are lot more stealthier and absolute gold in conventional ops.

 

For eg Naval Blockade of Karachi in 2030 would be lot more difficult than it is in 2025 (right now it is a piece of cake)... That's why destroying Pak Naval assets was important in Operation Sindoor.. a missed opportunity.

https://idrw.org/pakistani-navy-will-continue-to-surpass-indian-navy-in-aip-submarine-numbers-even-in-2030s/

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[mishra]

Quote

The Saudi–Pakistan defense pact represents both continuity and departure. It continues the decades-long pattern of Pakistani support for Saudi security, yet elevates the relationship to formal alliance language. For India, it complicates deterrence after Operation Sindoor and undermines years of Modi’s personal diplomacy with Riyadh. For Israel, it introduces Pakistan-and its nuclear ambiguity-into the Gulf’s formal security calculus.

This is less about the likelihood of Saudi troops defending Pakistan and more about the symbolic weight of a Muslim nuclear state tied openly to Riyadh. It is a reminder that the security architectures of South Asia and the Middle East are increasingly interconnected-and that both India and Israel must recalibrate their strategies in light of this emerging reality.

How Israelis are seeing it. They are not taking Paksitani nukes lightly anymore

[crictime]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Blunders ki baat karenge to raat ho jayegi. 
Abhi Social Media ka time hai, to present govt ki harkaton pe baat karne k liye masala bahut hai. But agar past me ap jaoge to khud sharm aa jayegi ki ham aisi party ko 70 saal tak support kar rahe they.

PVNR was the last great leader Congress had, Shastriji was capable but couldn't get much time, Indira Gandhi started with a bang but then became a burden post emergency, ManMohan was a rubber stamp, Rajiv Gandhi was no better than Rahul and his blunders are well known. Sonia Yug ki to baat karni hi bekar hai.

Freebies ki shuruat kisne kari ? Public to apna pehle dekhengi, Hyderabad me RTC, Metro and Local trains loss me ja rahi hai kyunki women ko RTC me free me travel diya gya hai. L&T ab metro project se exit lena chahta hai due to losses, kaun responsible hai iske liye ? Aur kyu koi pvt player ab aaega market me due to these hits. 

I think freebies culture by political parties  was there in southern states like hyderabad and bangalore. Also there were some freebies in Bihar. 

 

Needless to say BJP and SS had to come up with freebies scheme for Maharashtra as well to have a level playing field although late. But when they used idea of others, suddenly other parties started making noise.

[crictime]

Delhi also had some free electricity, transport schemes? Some other states also have such freeby culture in some or other capacity which we may not be aware off.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, crictime said:

Delhi also had some free electricity, transport schemes? Some other states also have such freeby culture in some or other capacity which we may not be aware off.

It started at small scale...like distributing cycles to girls in Bihar, Chattisgarh etc to encourage them to go to school.

 

I think there was some free laptop distribution scheme as well in UP during Akhilesh's time.

 

Massive shift was the freebies in Delhi, that started the ecosystem.

[crictime]

The corruption money accumulated over the years which is lying with babus and officials in various public departments would be so much that even if they return it , India would be able to easily manage defense budget and strengthen by procuring fighter planes, tanks, missile systems etc. Sadly, even when India is getting cornered diplomatically, not a single party is willing to act against corruption. You will see bribes being accepted even today. This money which is lost  to corruption should instead be used for making country great, but not even one politician dares to tackle the corruptiom problem which is the biggest cause of the mess that we see in infrastructure, education, defense, healthcare etc. Sab bolbacchan hai, churaan sab dete hai. Same  chest thumping story with 4th largest economy but no muscle power and terroirst attacks not stopping. Diplomatic failure. Expect more terror attacks as terrorist sponsors have secured more money in their account and have financial backing of China, American and Saudi money.

 

Read the interviews of the air chief every month in press highlighting  that our air power is not having proper inventory. Offcourse without that information the Chinese intelligence must be a anways aware of how depleted our stocks must be and how backwards we are compared to them. No wonder the terrorist attacks keep happening. China will also grab  more land as and when it sees opportunity.  The politicians of this great country are really a basket case busy in how to keep winning elections so that they can continue pocketing corruption money and not doing their jobs well. 

 

Akash ayega, aur rafael kharidenge, yeh karna hai usme woh engine lagani hai. Itna thrust utna speed itni range. Churaan bhi itna acchese dete hai people really beleive this nonsense being sold. Such comedy. So much time taken regarding years taken for readiness in defense. As if China and Pakistan will wait for India to become a super power in reality and not in dreams. China and Pakistan will keep probing as and when they realise it is right time.

[Lone Wolf]

@singhvivek141 another terrible news on Submarine front

 

 

[singhvivek141]

54 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

@singhvivek141 another terrible news on Submarine front

 

 

It was expected, US will force its western puppies to create disasters for India. We have to get our **** together and DIY everything.
Is there any news about the lease of Russian Akula SSN's ? It was due for a renewal this year.
 

[Lone Wolf]

51 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

It was expected, US will force its western puppies to create disasters for India. We have to get our **** together and DIY everything.
Is there any news about the lease of Russian Akula SSN's ? It was due for a renewal this year.
 

Russians did offer second Akula Class SSN on lease to us in July... I don't think we have given any assurance on that front.

But the way things are going I don't think we have many other options.

 

Project 75I is most critical to keep our Naval dominance over Pak and minimum deterrence over Chinks in next decade.

 

On short term basis our proposed 3 scorpene class Submarine deal is also not signed.  Idk what are MoD baboons doing on that.  MDL production line is already idle.

BC sab ke sab chor hai saale.

Edited September 20, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[EnterTheVoid]

No way Saudis are going to fight Bikharistan's wars.

 

Bikharis drinking the usual cool-aid.

[pkmmamks]

Heard UAE is also joining Saudi and Pak. True?

[raki05]

On 9/18/2025 at 8:49 AM, rangeelaraja said:

 

None of what China has is really combat tested against a credible adversary. So everything that they show needs to be taken with a bucketful of salt. 
 

We cannot match them for numbers presently because we neither have that kind of budget nor manufacturing scale and capacity. 

 

It is going to be about superior training and tactics. 
 

Chinese had the biggest advantage to produce the most potent vaccines for COVID - given that it originated in Wuhan - yet it was Indian vaccines that were sought world over for effectiveness -  not Chinese. Many of our firms built them indigenously. 
 

I see Chinese weapons technology with the same scepticism unless they are combat proven.  

 

Especially when all engines which they used is Russian reverse engineered junk.

[Lone Wolf]

30 minutes ago, raki05 said:

Especially when all engines which they used is Russian reverse engineered junk.

Lol reverse engineering a jet engine is the work of billions and billions of dollars worth of investment.

 

We would have also done it if we could.

 

Their propulsion systems are powering their nuclear & AIP powered Submarines.. which have reached 70+ this year lol

 

Even our defence experts have stopped living in this coping mechanism anymore.

 

Edited September 20, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[bharathh]

The last few years really feel like history in the making. The 2010s IMO were not as action packed as the years since Covid has been. The world is really going through a huge global shift. 

 

IMO, this Pak Saudi thing is concerning. Pak will buy US weapons using Saudi money I suppose. That said, I really don't know how they are keeping their country going. They are an economic disaster with huge insurgenices in Balochistan and KP. How on earth are they still a country? What is keeping them together? They don't have water, food, etc. and yet they are somehow still relevant internationally. Miraculous really.

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Lol reverse engineering a jet engine is the work of billions and billions of dollars worth of investment.

 

We would have also done it if we could.

 

Their propulsion systems are powering their nuclear & AIP powered Submarines.. which have reached 70+ this year lol

 

Even our defence experts have stopped living in this coping mechanism anymore.

 

It has nothing to do with ability if you know a little bit of history. Global Arms exports to China were sanctioned after the tiananmen square massacre of students and pro democracy protesters and Russia always sold its lower end products to China which it viewed as a future adversary in the 1980s …. So reverse engineering ( whatever it could get from Russia and Western tech smuggled from Pak )  became a strategic necessity…. a survival issue ….. and it has been a persistent effort for several decades. Also the defense firms are heavily state sponsored. 
 

Unlike India, where under the filthy Gandhi family defense imports was the most reliable source of foreign kickbacks for decades —its only since 2014 have we gone on a massive indigenization spree. Thanks to the Gandhi family being kicked out. Can you remind me what % of the capex back then was foreign arms  imports vs. now ?  

Edited September 20, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[rangeelaraja]

On 9/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, pkmmamks said:

haan nahi chalega unka. hamara chalega

Jiske pass option hai…. Or paisa hai, woh unka samaan nahi leta… 

 

Saudi rejects their most advanced fighter … J35 citing a variety of reliability issues… lol.

Kya tum ek poore desh ke establishment se jyada jaankari rakhte ho ??

 

https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2025/03/20/saudi-arabia-rejected-chinese-j-35a-fighter-jets-concerning-its-stealth-feature-engine-radar-and-avionics/amp/

 

sure they are much ahead of us because they had a massive headstart and the state funding they have received is 100X of what our govt has given defense PSUs. 
 

but that there are massive reliability issues is a fact.